Outdoor Wood Boiler Lifespan

   / Outdoor Wood Boiler Lifespan #21  
op- forget all the warnings on not getting one or whatever. first off - if wife hears it only last 5 years - I'd get more facts. what brand? why? talk to that owner what happened. second - do you have a way to have 10-20 cords a year cut down and split, moved, piled? if you get pulled away on a trip - who can maintain the stove for you?
 
   / Outdoor Wood Boiler Lifespan #22  
op- forget all the warnings on not getting one or whatever. first off - if wife hears it only last 5 years - I'd get more facts. what brand? why? talk to that owner what happened. second - do you have a way to have 10-20 cords a year cut down and split, moved, piled? if you get pulled away on a trip - who can maintain the stove for you?

I think most systems are dual fuel, with either an oil-fired or propane-fired backup system in the house. Of course, as with any system, all bets are off if the electricity goes out for an extended period.
 
   / Outdoor Wood Boiler Lifespan #23  
Yes moeh1 progress is being made but in my opinion much more needs to be done. The new so called gasified units are a start but still can pollute. There is a person in Wisconsin who has posted numerous pictures of a CB E Classic 2400 filling the area they live in with smoke.

One of the problems with the gasifier units is the EPA certification process. It is flawed. The best analogy to describe it is to compare it to how the car industry arrives at their mpg you see on the sticker. We all know that when you purchase that car unless you drive in perfect conditions with no extra weight, straight and level roads, no wind, dry conditions you're not going to consistently get what was stated. Many never come close to what was on the sticker. The same goes for OWBs. The gasifier is tested under ideal conditions with no temp inversions, optimally dried hard wood, optimally stacked wood with spacers in between for ideal air flow, and the burn rate is adjusted over four categories. The damper however is never fully closed during the test. The device is then given a rating showing how many grams per hour of PM 2.5 is emitted under these lab conditions. So the consumer goes to the dealer and says. Hey I need an OWB that will heat my 1500 square foot home but I want something that will burn all night so I don't have to get up to re-load it. The dealer shows him a unit that is rated for 5000 square feet. The consumer says perfect I'll buy it. He takes the unit home chucks it completely full of wood but he doesn't use spacers in between the logs to maximize air flow, instead of using optimally dried wood he loads it from a pile that has been sitting out in the weather. After he ignites it and brings it up to temp the house warms quickly because it's designed to heat 5k SF, 1500 hundred is a walk in the park. Now the device goes into closed damper mode because the house is no longer calling for heat. Since it no longer needs heat the OWB can't continue to burn at a high temp because the water will boil. So all the while it's in closed damper mode creosol begins to accumulate on the internal metal surfaces. Finally, the house cools down and again calls for heat the fire roars back up igniting the creosol and belches out smoke. This cycle continues because the OWB is oversized for the home, semi-dry wood is being used, and since there is a temp inversion today the smoke and odor are held close to the ground saturating the neighborhood.

This is how the story mostly goes throughout cold climate states. This is why neighbors continue to complain. When you think about the mpg analogy no one gets hurt but the person buying the car. In the OWB scenario neighbors are affected. So yes the technology is better than the first round of OWBs (still being sold in many states) but as stated above we are far from perfecting it.
 
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   / Outdoor Wood Boiler Lifespan #24  
wsp617
It's too bad Skybox can't stay on topic.

Outdoor wood boilers are not typically your "primary" source of heat - especially for home heating. There safety listing allows them to be connected to your homes existing heating system (look for one that is safety listed). When connected this way you don't have to ask a neighbor or in-laws to fill your furnace while your on vacation. Many building officials would not let an outdoor wood boiler be your only source of heat anyway...they would require you to have a forced air system, boiler system, etc. and the outdoor wood boiler connects to it. Consider what would happen if a tree happened to fall on your outdoor wood boiler and destroyed it - what are you going to do for heat if it that is your only source? Outdoor wood boilers often have the ability to operate off of a generator or power inverter too - for power loss situations.

There are many U.S. manufacturers of outdoor wood boilers that have products in the field for 20+ years. However, if you are looking at the lifespan of an EPA Phase 2 Qualified Hydronic Heater like the one you mentioned - keep in mind that the Phase 2 portion has only been in place since 2008. There is not a 20+ year body of work behind those products; therefore, you would best consider how long that manufacturer has been in business and the quality of their products.

I would recommend that you get a hold of a local dealer and then visit some of those products in the field to take a look at them. Some of the dealers may have one set up at their business for you too look at and tinker with and some dealers may be able to set up an appointment for you to go and look at one operating in the field. I would recommend that you try do some hands on to see what you think.

Consider that an outdoor wood boiler is a whole house heater, not a small room heater (like many indoor wood stoves). You are heating your entire house, domestic water, maybe a garage or workshop, etc. Now are you going you turn your thermostat up from 67 to 72 because your not paying for oil. All of it needs to be considered. A room heater needs less wood than a wood heater that heats 5 to 10 times more. The amount of wood you need is relative to the Btu's you need. If it's a brand new home - I'm sure a heat calc. will be done for you - so that you can properly size your outdoor wood boiler to your Btu requirements. Size your outdoor wood boiler based upon the heat you need - not square footage. Your 3,000 sq. ft. may need a lot less wood than your neighbor's 1950's 3,000 sq. ft. based upon modern day construction.

Skybox reminds me of a guy on another forum that happens to be based in MI, disparages certain products (like the one you are considering) then happens to be a dealer for the ONE product he happens to think you should install. WI isn't close to MI is it? Again, too bad he can't stay on topic. Good luck!
 
   / Outdoor Wood Boiler Lifespan #25  
It has gotten warmer here and we let our wood stove burn out Tuesday night. This morning I drove through the area with a few outdoor wood burners and there was smoke fog. Not much but some. WHY they were burning I could not figure out because it was pretty warm. The guy with the new wood burner, the air was perfectly fine but he may not have been burning because of the warm temperatures. I could not see anything from his chimney but that is not unusual. There is a school that I pass that uses gas to heat classrooms. I see more "smoke" from their exhaust stacks than I ever see out of this guy's new wood burner. Danged thing is amazing.

Later,
Dan
 
   / Outdoor Wood Boiler Lifespan #26  
Shally from MN, home of Central Boiler and Woodmaster. Glad you could join the discussion. I agree the topic has drifted somewhat but for those considering purchasing an OWB the topic is relevant. You bring up a few good points but they need further clarification. First, the safety listing you're talking about I assume is the UL listing. Yes, the UL is an important factor and normally distingusihes that the manufacturer of the OWB paid to have the product inspected and received the thumbs up approval. However, lets not confuse the UL rating with air quality issues. Air quality is not part of the UL approval, a common misconception. The agency responsible for air quality is the EPA. An OWB may have the stamp of approval from the Underwriters Labotories stating that the pop-off valves are installed correctly, the steel is adequate etc. but it does not address the potential for emitting pollution. Again, that is a EPA responsibility. If you do contact a building inspector before installing an OWB he should check that the product is UL qualified. He will also ensure that the device is installed according to local codes, but what he will not do in most cases is disapprove the installation based on the potential for pollution. Of course if the township or state has banned OWBs or implemented set-backs and chimney heights, the inspector will address those issues. So the bottom-line is: a UL label will not give you immunity from a law suit for smoke and odor.

Next point, yes OWBs are considered a whole house heating system and they do burn significantly more wood, but they also emit more pollution per hour than a typical indoor room wood burner. That is the point and the problem. I have seen studies that try to justify the amount of pollution an OWB produces by stating pound-for-pound of wood burned an indoor wood burner and OWB produce similar amounts of pollution. The EPA conducted this study years ago when OWBs began to migrate out of rural areas into suburban america. OWB manufacturers cherry-picked the study and pulled out a small section of the report that talked about the the pound for pound clause and used it to try and convince law makers and consumers that the amount of pollution emitted from an indoor wood boiler was the same as that produced by an OWB. But a careful reading of the report shows that the quantity that is important is the grams per hour that is produced not pound for pound. To a person trying to justify purchasing or a person defending an OWB purchase it's the kind of subterfuge they'll grab onto. Law makers ignorant of technical issues also found it convenient to use, but since then subsequent reports debunked the deliberate confusion.

I do agree that you should go to the dealer and quiz him. But the problem you'll run into is there is no way the dealer can reproduce the actual set-up you'll have at home. For example, if you have a 3000 SF home and the dealer suggests you purchase a 5k unit you won't know how it will react with respect to smoke and odor till you get it home an hooked up. The dealer will most probably start a small fire, burn it extremely hot and say look no smoke. With no load on the furnace and no building representing the square footage of your home there is no way he'll be able to emulate your set-up. I suggest you find someone who has purchased the model you're looking at and go see it in October, Jan, and April.

OK let's discuss sizing in a little more detail. Did you ever know anyone that installed their own air conditioner and over sized it? What happens is the unit will rapidly cool down the house but because it wasn't sized properly it won't remove the necessary humidity for comfort in the process. This is somewhat similar to oversizing an OWB but the bill payer will be your neighbor. Many smoke problems could be solved with the new Phase II units if the dealers would insist on properly sized units. Unfortunately, they make more money when they sell a larger unit. If the manufacturers would pull their heads out of their *** and looked at the big picture they would realize for every oversized unit sold there is a potential for an upset neighbor and an enemy for life. An enemy that will join with others around the nation and fight them with every fiber of their being. I have seen this happen over and over again and it will continue to cost manufacturers in ways they can't calculate.

Lastly, as long as there is cycling of the damper, oversized units being sold, and semi dry wood (over 20%) being used, achieving real gasification will be difficult unless a secondary heat source is employed keeping the fire burning hot between cycles thereby sustaining the gasification process. Manufacturers know as well as their dealers do that if you size the unit to the house the wood burns up quicker and you'll be outside reloading in the wee hours of the morning. There lies the catch 22 for manufacturers.

The so called Phase II technology is not ready for prime time until these issues can be addressed. Perhaps this is why CB now has in its owners manual that they are not responsible for nuisance conditions created by their product.
 
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   / Outdoor Wood Boiler Lifespan #27  
Pros, cons, and lifespans of outdoor/indoor boilers aside, a new home should not need the sort of energy these units can produce. A new home is a golden opportunity to prepare for a very low energy future. There is no point in feeding a boiler or paying a propane bill the rest of your life if you don't have to.
 
   / Outdoor Wood Boiler Lifespan #28  
Dan,

If it's a natural gas system it's steam coming out of the stack. The concern with using natural gas as a heating source is CO. Always make sure your furnace is checked before the heating season and use CO detectors.

skybox
 
   / Outdoor Wood Boiler Lifespan #29  
Dave,

I agree with you 100%. I installed a geothermal unit with a closed loop system. I suggest anyone considering purchasing a so-called gasifier wood boiler , they first check out geo thermal for almost the same amount with the 30% tax credit. These systems use the 55 % temp of the earth as a preset for heat and cooling and make hot water on top of it. I have over 3000 SF in Michigan (30 year ranch) and my electric bill hovers right around 200 dollars a month. I also have a lot of other electric appliances. The system is unbelievable.
 
   / Outdoor Wood Boiler Lifespan #30  
Dave,

I agree with you 100%. I installed a geothermal unit with a closed loop system. I suggest anyone considering purchasing a so-called gasifier wood boiler , they first check out geo thermal for almost the same amount with the 30% tax credit. These systems use the 55 % temp of the earth as a preset for heat and cooling and make hot water on top of it. I have over 3000 SF in Michigan (30 year ranch) and my electric bill hovers right around 200 dollars a month. I also have a lot of other electric appliances. The system is unbelievable.

Lots of TBN'ers speak well of their geothermal systems. It may be possible to do even better by using passive solar and super-insulation techniques depending on your solar resource. In this insolation map: Solar Insolation Map | Sugar Land, Texas USA | Solarcraft I am about on the line between the 1.5 and 2.0 areas in Maine. I have an earth-bermed passive solar home and it is working well for me. Northern MI might be iffy, but the southern third of the state looks like it might have potential.
 
 
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