Flail Mower Let's talk flail mowers

[leonz]

Few questions for you folks as I cannot read 367 pages.
I did read many. My next purchase will be a tiller and then some type of mower.
The flail does a nicer job from the looks of things. How are the prices new compared?
Would a person hiring me be willing to pay more for a better job?
I expect not but want your thoughts. Which mows quickest?
Acres per hour when hired is critical.
What is the downside of the flail other than maintenance?

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What down side????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The flail mower will mower faster and be much more effective when mowing tall grass and weekly mowing.

The first cost is greater but the cost per year is much much less as long as you do the proper maintenance
which is not much when mowing good turf.

When I use my flail mower I average 4 miles per hour or less as my lawn tractor tows my motorized flail mower.

Your mule will have plenty of power for a JD 290 flail mower as its a 7 foot finish flail mower.

YOU NEED to read all the pages. There is wealth of information there that you need to read to become an informed consumer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It all depends on the Mule and its horsepower and whether its a hydrostatic transmission mule.


A flail mower will automatically reduce your cost of liability insurance and give you a lawn striping job at no extra cost to you.

Someone paying for a mowing service is not going to pay you for a better job they expect perfection the first time and will pay you per week or per month or per call.

You cannot recut the clippings with a rotary finish mower unless they are so dry they are brittle.

Once they see how nice the cut is you will be getting lots of custom work if you do not have
a lot of competition with any Dixie Chopper,Ferris,Bunton or Toro owners.

A wider flail will save you time and money and you have to decide how wide a flail mower you want for your mule.

A larger tractor will provide you with plenty of reserve power to let you mow at a good speed..

The issue is whether you have turf tires as the R4's will damage turf when its wet.

There is less to worry about with a flail mower or to wear out mowing good turf.

You are at the limit for a JD 290 or 390 finish flail mower as far as power but you will need a wide flat bed trailer
to haul it and the mule meaning a nine foot wide flat bed safely without a oversize width permit).

Mowing jobs are mowing jobs your total cost of ownership plus a reasonable profit is going to determine how much you charge as people are going to look at what you charge per week compared to others in the business and that is the ruling factor.

The extra 2 or 3 feet of mowing width with the 290 or 390 is a huge marketing edge but you have to compete with others so they will try to undercut you. The ideal price is what your client wants to pay period and if you can offer a season long price per month all the better.

There is lot involved in contract mowing so you need to do a lot of reading other than the flail mower thread.


Finish reading, check on the insurance costs for a 1,000,000 in umbrella liability and Workman's Compensation for 6 months then decide.

Most folks will not hire you if you do not have insurance so keep that in mind.

 

[powerscol]

1. Ask for the information package.

2. tell them what the center line height is from the PTO stub of the mule to the pavement.
a. if your current mule is not a low profile mule-meaning row crop tell that to them first then the model type and number designation.
3. tell them if you have loaded tires

The more weight the better for the left side for the stability of the mule-liquid ballast, suit case weights, left wheel wheel weight-no extra weight on right side as the weight of the mower is of center and creating a great deal of potential for tipping if the exact or greater amount of weight is not present opposing the flail mowers weight above the ground/pavement.


What you will have is referred to as an over center load with the boom and mower away from the center line of the tractor.


The specification sheets will show/should show the rear of a tractor with the specific mowers reach and measurements.



They will help you from there on.

Called Mr Lavelli number - disconnected no longer in service, so I called the main number 563-659-6400 and got the run around that I needed to go through a dealer. She did not want to put me through to him but is sending me dealer info. I will be emailing him with the questions and see what happens. :confused3:

 

[lennyzx11]

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Hello Lenny,


We need to know what model Mott Flail Mower you have first.

If you have a Finish Flail Mower it has side slicers, you can buy hardened side slicer knives
or standard non hardened side slicer knives.

You have to decide how many knives, and knive hangers you want to buy as changing the knife hangers, knife hanger straps and replacing them all is always a good idea in the scheme of things due to metal fatigue.

You have to decide how many knives, knife hangers, nuts and bolts etc. you want to order and whether you want to order them from the major suppliers like Clean Cutter or Flail Master, Hard Hitter, Messicks, etc.


1. YOU Need to find the model number.

2. you need to measure the knife in several ways to make the proper identification

Measure the following items


1. with the knife being held vertical the total height of the knife
2. The width of the knife at the vertical portion
3. The thickness of the knife at the vetical portion
4. The mounting slot length and width or hole diameter
5. angle of the knife edge using a protractor
6. length of cutting edge

Until then, you and I and the rest of the forum members with flail mowers are verticutting our brush and good grass sod and rowing in circles but still floating.

You have lots of help and as a member of the Flail Mower Nations you have plenty of help here on the attachments page
of TBN



Help us to help us help you with you parts inquiry. Until then its sink or swim for you.

Leonz I'm not sure exactly what model. You told me that you thought it was an Interstater. There's some pictures there of what I have.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...alk-flail-mowers-post4458286.html#post4458286

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/118882-lets-talk-flail-mowers-296.html

I posted back around 18MAY16 when I bought it here as unusual due to having a round tube frame that Mott had said they never made.

I'm away from home but will measure these items when I get back to my home from work. But I thought there was only one choice for the side slicer knives so I didn't measure those items. I want to replace all knives, and hardware one good time and save the old stuff for replacements in the future.

The thread helped me with it there around the week after 18May and some though it may have been a Mott 72 with a different three point frame added.

Thanks for any help.

 

[powerscol]

Mr. Lavelli did respond to my email fairly quickly, only to refer me to my nearest distributor which is Beaver Valley Supply in Denver. He did not answer any of the technical questions. I called BVS and talked with a Mitch who indicated they dont stock the units but would find out what it would take to get them in. He seemed genuinely interested in helping. It appears my local retailer for BVS did not know who to talk too with them and only looked at the online catalog that does not show them.

I did email Mr Lavelli back and asked that my questions be referred to someone that could answer them as BVS was not up to speed on what I needed to know. More later as I find out. I want to make sure the unit pivots out far enough to clear my rear tire and set on the bank. The Victory model 165 unit appears to be short of pivoting beyond my tire, but were still checking.

Hope this help folks out.

 

[Xfaxman]

Leonz I'm not sure exactly what model. You told me that you thought it was an Interstater. There's some pictures there of what I have.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...alk-flail-mowers-post4458286.html#post4458286

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/118882-lets-talk-flail-mowers-296.html

I posted back around 18MAY16 when I bought it here as unusual due to having a round tube frame that Mott had said they never made.

-----------------------

Thanks for any help.

Your links aren't working.

Try this one: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...alk-flail-mowers-post4458286.html#post4458286

 

[smilinjak]

Thank you.

I think Leonz has more experience than me, I only started mowers and some other implements 3 years, it is just that i always stay in manufacturer factory and I can think something from the point view of manufacturer. Since I can get a lot information of customers and market from TBN, so I love this forum and thanks again.

The more I study on mower, the more difficult I think to produce a good mower.


For example about the rotor balance, kco mentioned his rotor balance 292 gram and 257 gram weight on each end, for such rotor shaft, i will throw it away. From now on, I set up this standard to factory much smaller. And I employ third party person to inspect this point for all the rotor balance, also inspect many other points on products.

By the way, I started to use Comer gear box on some of my mowers, Victory will list them soon, maybe 2 months later. Because I noticed Comer has better quality and service than JCTT after I sold thousands mowers with JCTT. So in future, we may shift more mowers to be with Comer gear box, instead of JCTT, depend on our analysis.

Leonz has a wealth of information and I have learned a lot from him on this forum. Your knowledge from being at the source of the Chinese mowers is irreplaceable. For those of us who don't have much opportunity to buy the older used equipment at bargain prices the economical alternative of imports is very attractive and with your input from the source making an informed decision is much easier.
Would you recommend waiting the two months for Victory to change to the Comer gear box? Will there be a big price increase? With winter coming on mowing is not a top priority so a two month wait would not bother me if there is a big advantage to the Comer gear box.
Smilinjak

 

[powerscol]

Mr. Lavelli did respond to my email fairly quickly, only to refer me to my nearest distributor which is Beaver Valley Supply in Denver. He did not answer any of the technical questions. I called BVS and talked with a Mitch who indicated they dont stock the units but would find out what it would take to get them in. He seemed genuinely interested in helping. It appears my local retailer for BVS did not know who to talk too with them and only looked at the online catalog that does not show them.

I did email Mr Lavelli back and asked that my questions be referred to someone that could answer them as BVS was not up to speed on what I needed to know. More later as I find out. I want to make sure the unit pivots out far enough to clear my rear tire and set on the bank. The Victory model 165 unit appears to be short of pivoting beyond my tire, but were still checking.

Hope this help folks out.

Mitch with BVS did call back with information and pricing. Their pricing is much higher than another online source, but he provided somewhat different information that was helpful. He also made an alternate suggestion. I am very puzzled from what I am now finding, The Giraffetta 160 SE is listed as needing 25 and 35 as the min HP depending on the source sheets. European say 25HP, US say 35HP Confusing. BVS says I cant run it, but another seller says I can.

I plan to test my lifting and operating capability by adding weight to my PZ 170 mower. It weighs 840 lbs, and extends 10' from the PTO pivot point and I am guessing the pivot arm to the mower head is about the same mass as the flail mower arms. If I add weight to the center of the mass of what the flail mower would be extended, say 150lbs or maybe 200 lbs for a safety margin and then try and lift both in the rear position and most critically to the side, do you think this would give me the idea of what I am up against? I can account of the pivot location being to one side of the 3pt by moving the load out to where the load would be on the flail. The units I am looking at weigh 900lbs, 926lbs and 980lbs. Any suggestions on this would be appreciated.

The big confusion is the offset distance. In the sales photos most show the gear box/pivot point outside the tire on larger tractors than what I have, but per the dimensions in the specks, many do not go far enough to the side. Ill do some more calls Monday to find out the answer. The gear box/pivot point needs to be beyond my tire to mow a ditch bank, correct? I want to stay on the road, and not get over onto the bank.

IF anyone here running a ditch bank or verge mower that can take some real world measurements on how far the gearbox or pivot point actually moves in relation to the PTO shaft? This would be a huge help.

Thanks Keith

 

[IslandTractor]

Mitch with BVS did call back with information and pricing. Their pricing is much higher than another online source, but he provided somewhat different information that was helpful. He also made an alternate suggestion. I am very puzzled from what I am now finding, The Giraffetta 160 SE is listed as needing 25 and 35 as the min HP depending on the source sheets. European say 25HP, US say 35HP Confusing. BVS says I cant run it, but another seller says I can. I plan to test my lifting and operating capability by adding weight to my PZ 170 mower. It weighs 840 lbs, and extends 10' from the PTO pivot point and I am guessing the pivot arm to the mower head is about the same mass as the flail mower arms. If I add weight to the center of the mass of what the flail mower would be extended, say 150lbs or maybe 200 lbs for a safety margin and then try and lift both in the rear position and most critically to the side, do you think this would give me the idea of what I am up against? I can account of the pivot location being to one side of the 3pt by moving the load out to where the load would be on the flail. The units I am looking at weigh 900lbs, 926lbs and 980lbs. Any suggestions on this would be appreciated. The big confusion is the offset distance. In the sales photos most show the gear box/pivot point outside the tire on larger tractors than what I have, but per the dimensions in the specks, many do not go far enough to the side. Ill do some more calls Monday to find out the answer. The gear box/pivot point needs to be beyond my tire to mow a ditch bank, correct? I want to stay on the road, and not get over onto the bank. IF anyone here running a ditch bank or verge mower that can take some real world measurements on how far the gearbox or pivot point actually moves in relation to the PTO shaft? This would be a huge help. Thanks Keith

I'd be surprised if your CUT 3pt would have trouble with a 1000lb implement that only extends 4-5 feet back regardless of offset. My 40hp tractor with 32PTO power can lift about 3000lbs with 3pt. My 750lb flail with offset is barely noticeable.

 

[leonz]

Hello Keith,

The only way your going to get a straight answer is this way:

I would rather see you send a detailed fax and letter to its distributor for Maschio-Gaspardo in its office in Great Britain directly which is OPICO with the fax/letter addresses exactly like this to:
====================================================================



From:

you-provide your complete contact information



TO:

OPICO LIMITED
Maschio-Gespardo Implement Sales Department
Cherry Holt Road, Bourne,
Lincolnshire PE10 9LA
Tel. 044-1778-41-1111
Fax 044-1778 -42-5080

BODY of FAX:

To whom it may concern,

I am inquiring directly to you about one of the Mascio Giraffe integral three point hitch boom mounted flail mowers.

In this Fax to you I have provided the complete information about the tractor in intend to use from "Tractor Data" and I wish to ask which is the correct Giraffe Boom Mounted Flail Mower with which to mow my drainage ditches(verges) with the same tractor effectively and safely and I need to know which model Giraffe that my tractor is safely capable of using with the "over center load condition" created by the boom and its flail mower.


(In the fax YOU need to provide them with additional and complete information as to your mule and whether your tires are loaded with liquid ballast and whether you have suitcase weights, and or rear wheel weights for the road side tire.
Also remind them in the letter that you intend to stay on the pavement/Asphalt/Mccaddam in their case with the shoulder side tire at all times and that you need to know which mower will work with the depth the drainage ditch if known).



Thank you very much for your help with my inquiry about your Giraffe flail mowers.


Sincerely yours,

your address and phone numbers and e-mail


They will help you get the right flail mower for your mule.

If you decide to call OPICO in England which will be faster as they can then e-mail the information to
you remember that they are 5 hours ahead of us which is referred to as GMT: Greenich Mean Time
which is Eastern Standard Time plus five hours.


Sending them an inquiry by Fax will get you an answer quickly and in English. If you decide to call OPICO remember that start of business over there will at least 3AM or 4AM Eastern Standard Time for our time zones
Being 8AM or 9AM G.M.T. (Greenich Mean Time).

 

[kco]

Thank you.

I think Leonz has more experience than me, I only started mowers and some other implements 3 years, it is just that i always stay in manufacturer factory and I can think something from the point view of manufacturer. Since I can get a lot information of customers and market from TBN, so I love this forum and thanks again.

The more I study on mower, the more difficult I think to produce a good mower.

For example about the rotor balance, kco mentioned his rotor balance 292 gram and 257 gram weight on each end, for such rotor shaft, i will throw it away. From now on, I set up this standard to factory much smaller. And I employ third party person to inspect this point for all the rotor balance, also inspect many other points on products.

By the way, I started to use Comer gear box on some of my mowers, Victory will list them soon, maybe 2 months later. Because I noticed Comer has better quality and service than JCTT after I sold thousands mowers with JCTT. So in future, we may shift more mowers to be with Comer gear box, instead of JCTT, depend on our analysis.

I appreciate your points on how to distinguish differences in quality Jack. I'm interested in your limits for balance rotor balance weights, and the reason for the limits. I suspect your comment regarding lost weights my be one reason. That is why I measured my weights. If I lose one I will be able to replace it.

I imagine the rotor is the most critical, expensive and complex part on the mower. I don't know how to evaluate the quality but wonder if centrifugal force gives one indication of how different rotor/blade components influence quality. I used this calculator:

CalcTool: Centrifugal force calculator

...to calculate theoretical centrifugal forces on my mower's rotor.

Assumptions used for the calculations(rotor radius = 2.5"):

DISTANCES (inches from rotor centre to mass centre) and CENTRIFUGAL FORCE for 1g (@2,200RPM):
inches lbf
balance weight: 2.90 0.878917
blade hanger hole: 3.29 0.997116
hammer blade: 6.50 1.96999

MY MOWER COMPONENT WEIGHTS:
left rotor balance weight: 292g
right rotor balance weight: 257g
hanger bolt and nut: 225g

heaviest hammer weight (from my 36 blade sample): 1,070g
lightest hammer weight (from my 36 blade sample): 1,000g


CENTRIFUGAL FORCE (LBF) FOR MY COMPONENTS:

left rotor balance weight(292g): 257 lbf (0.878917 x 292)
right rotor balance weight(227g): 225 lbf (0.878917 x 227)
TOTAL: 482 lbf

HAMMER BLADES:
hanger bolt and nut(225g): 224 lbf (0.997116 x 225)
heaviest blade (1,070g): 2,108 lbf (1.9699 x 1070)
lightest blade (1,000g): 1,970 lbf (1.9699 x 1070)

heaviest blade/bolt: 2,332 lbf
lightest blade/bolt: 2,194 lbf
difference: 138 lbf = largest possible unbalanced force of my 36 blade sample

This may be meaningless if my assumption about centrifugal forces is wrong. However, if not, the data seems to infer:

1. My balance weights compensate for an initial rotor centrifugal imbalance of 482 pounds-force, which might be similar to running with 1/4 broken off a hammer blade. This analyis showed my assumption that the rotor balance weights did not seem significant because they were much lighter than the blades and bolts was incorrect. The bolts/blades are in opposing sets while the rotor weights oppose what may be several manufacturing anomolies along the rotor assembly. My mower has no noticeable vibration, so I like to think they got it right.

2. Island Tractor is correct when saying a 20 g difference in blade weights is likely insignificant--the centrifugal force imbalance is about 40 lbf (1.96999 x 20). He also said losing a blade (or clevis/blade pair for grass blades) is significant. The imbalance if I lose a blade on my mower will be about 2,000 lbs force.

Jack Yuan, some questions to help understand quality control:
1. Rotor balance weights:
a) What is the maximum you accept for rotor balance weights?
b) what are the disadvantages of exceeding these limits?

2. Forged hammer blades:
a) What is the weight for the forged hammer blades you supply?
b) What weight variance do you accept for these blades?

3. Cast hammer blades:
a) what weight range did you see cast blades that made you switch to forged blades?

I'll understand if you prefer not to answer some of the questions. Your previous posts on these and other quality control considerations (such as vent plugs, debris guards, V-belts) have already raised our awareness of items to consider when purchasing equipment. I agree with smilinjak when he stated "Your knowledge from being at the source of the Chinese mowers is irreplaceable."

I've already purchased my mower which has components your quality control rejects. Your advice has shown me how to easily bring my mower close to your standards (except for the rotor). I'm not too concerned because I'm sure the mower is fine for my cutting conditions and limited use.

Thanks for your comments.