Also shopping for a first tractor

[allenron]

Hello everyone: We're shopping for a first tractor along with a number of other folks on TBN. Our property is 32 acres of rough woods and brush, with some steep slopes, dirt roads and fire breaks, and a lot of dead trees. Our tree maintenance guys recommended a machine with at least 40HP on the PTO, for chipping. They also said, find the minimum HP that you need and then get the next bigger size tractor. This was our starting point.

We'll need to move dirt and chips and slash around, so a front-end loader is a must-have. Also, we plan some construction, so a backhoe attachment is on our list. A later option might be a scraper box, and after that, we probably will find a chipping attachment for medium-sized logs (8" pine or 6" oak). These items in mind, we have looked at the following tools:

1. John Deere 4053R and M, 50.8 and 51.5 HP, 42.2 and 40 HP PTO, 4 cylinder Yanmar engine with hydrostatic transmission.
2. Massey Ferguson 1749, 48.3 HP, 37.8 HP PTO, 3 cylinder Mitsubishi engine, with HST.
3. Kubota L47TLB, 47.1 HP, 33 HP PTO, 4 cylinder Kubota engine, with HST.
4. A late-comer to the list is the Massey Ferguson 2706E, 57.3 HP, 45.9 HP PTO, 4 cylinder Shibaura engine. Again with HST.

We looked at a New Holland tractor at the county fair a while back, but we didn't like the configuration of its hydraulic hoses. They were all over the place on front loader arms and the backhoe boom & stick. We were worried about them catching on brush around the property. (We have a lot of manzanita, a fairly tough hardwood shrub/small tree.) But, maybe it's worth a second look.

At first we were hesitant about the MF, because we thought that getting parts might be a problem. But there are several dealers in cities in the Central Valley here, and the dealership in Merced (about 39 miles to our west) has a mechannic that lives in our area.

Well, these are some initial thoughts. Will post more on our survey this afternoon. Out to look at a planer and biscuit joiner now. Thanks! Ron & Bev

 

[allenron]

Hello everyone: We're shopping for a first tractor along with a number of other folks on TBN. Our property is 32 acres of rough woods and brush, with some steep slopes, dirt roads and fire breaks, and a lot of dead trees. Our tree maintenance guys recommended a machine with at least 40HP on the PTO, for chipping. They also said, find the minimum HP that you need and then get the next bigger size tractor. This was our starting point.

We'll need to move dirt and chips and slash around, so a front-end loader is a must-have. Also, we plan some construction, so a backhoe attachment is on our list. A later option might be a scraper box, and after that, we probably will find a chipping attachment for medium-sized logs (8" pine or 6" oak). These items in mind, we have looked at the following tools:

1. John Deere 4053R and M, 50.8 and 51.5 HP, 42.2 and 40 HP PTO, 4 cylinder Yanmar engine with hydrostatic transmission.
2. Massey Ferguson 1749, 48.3 HP, 37.8 HP PTO, 3 cylinder Mitsubishi engine, with HST.
3. Kubota L47TLB, 47.1 HP, 33 HP PTO, 4 cylinder Kubota engine, with HST.
4. A late-comer to the list is the Massey Ferguson 2706E, 57.3 HP, 45.9 HP PTO, 4 cylinder Shibaura engine. Again with HST.

We looked at a New Holland tractor at the county fair a while back, but we didn't like the configuration of its hydraulic hoses. They were all over the place on front loader arms and the backhoe boom & stick. We were worried about them catching on brush around the property. (We have a lot of manzanita, a fairly tough hardwood shrub/small tree.) But, maybe it's worth a second look.

At first we were hesitant about the MF, because we thought that getting parts might be a problem. But there are several dealers in cities in the Central Valley here, and the dealership in Merced (about 39 miles to our west) has a mechannic that lives in our area.

Well, these are some initial thoughts. Will post more on our survey this afternoon. Out to look at a planer and biscuit joiner now. Thanks! Ron & Bev

Here's some more on prices and some questions.

We haven't seen any of these models on sale used in our area. For a few days (hours??) there was a used JD 4052M up north of us, but it seems to have gone back to rental work. The new model prices, with front-end loader and backhoe, are as follows:

a. JD 4052R $48.9k
b. JD 4052M $44.9k
c. MF 1749 $42.8k
d. MF 2706E $39.8k
e. Kub 47TLB $54k

So, the MF2706E is the lowest price. It beats all the others in engine & PTO HP, and it has a class II 3-point hitch, with bushings that take it down to a class I. This seems like an advantage to us, as it gives us a wider range of devices that we can connect onto the back. We're not going to do any row crops, so it's perhaps unlikely that we'll need really heavy implements to drag behind, but who knows what we might be able to get used some day. The warranty is attractive: 2-year bumper-to-bumper and 5 year power train.

The Kubota is the best backhoe, as it seems that model is configured especially for backhoe work. It's also the most expensive. We are leaning away from it, because we think that our backhoe work will be relatively simple trenches for conduits and water pipes. But, friends of ours have one that they really like, so that's an input we have to reckon with.

The Deeres are in between in terms of price and performance. We are not sure about the warranty available with new tractors. I'm reading a 2-year commercial warranty (that's not us) and a 6-year engine warranty.

Some questions. If anyone has some insight here, we'd appreciate your input.

(i) How does the Mitsubishi engine on the MF 1749 get such high horsepower? It has only 3 cylinders, and has a smaller displacement (104 cu in) than the JDs (128 cu in) and the Kubota (148.5 cu in)? All of these are turbocharged, right? What magic is Mitsubishi getting away with here?

(ii) For that matter, how does Shibaura get 57HP and slightly large displacement in 4 cylinders (134 cu in) on the 2706E? It's 14% more HP than the JDs with only ~5% increase in displacement. It's 25% more HP than the Kubota. Is the different exhaust cleaning devices a factor here? (cf. next question.)

(iii) All of these tractors, except the MF 2706E, have diesel particulate filters (DPFs). The MF 2706E has exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) and a diesel oxidation catalyst (DOC) filter. Do these allow the high engine HP with slightly larger engine displacement? Or is Shibaura working some magic too?

(iv) Is the DPF a problem? It seems like they are relatively easy to clean. How long do they last? I read that they are expensive to replace, on the order of $1000; is that right? Does anyone know about maintenance intervals with EGR valves and DOCs?

Thanks! --Ron

 

[oldpilgrim]

Check Mahindra ... no DPF

Http://Www.mahindrausa.com/mcrd

 

[allenron]

Check Mahindra ... no DPF

Http://Www.mahindrausa.com/mcrd

Hi oldpilgrim: That's an interesting feature of the Mahindras. I see that they have a webpage devoted to their alternative technology:

Introducing our Tier IV "mCRD Technology" | Mahindra

We'll take a closer look at these tractors. The difficulty for us in buying one is that the dealers seem to be few and far from us in Northern California. I've never actually seen a Mahindra; of course, it's not like I'm any sort of tractor expert. Thanks for the tip! --Ron (and Bev)

 

[oosik]

Just some thoughts -

The backhoe attachment - that's going to be an $8K to $10K addition to the price of any tractor of the size you are looking at. Are you REALLY going to need a backhoe - year after year - to justify that cost? Can you invite your friend, with his backhoe, over to do what work you need. Maybe have a contractor do any digging you need. Its just - I see a lot of folks buying the backhoe attachment and then in a year or so - they are asking for advice on the best way to store their backhoe attachment.

PTO driven chipper - I've always had one and they are very useful. I've had/have Wallenstein. Be careful on sizing the chipper. Mine is a BX62s and will handle up to 6" trees/logs. You indicate the need for a chipper that will handle 8" material. Before you make the leap to a chipper - go out on your property, limb a tree that is 8" on the butt and try dragging that tree thirty feet. Fun isn't it. Now, imagine you want to chip one hundred trees that are 8" on the butt.

I maintain a pine forrest on my property. I cut & chip 750-900 small( 6" & smaller ) pines every spring. This is a two to three week job every spring and the first day is fun - the remainder, not so much.

Tractor sizing - I'm in full agreement with the philosophy - determine the size tractor you need and then go one size bigger. Over time - "things" - will pop up that will make you wish you had a bit more tractor.

 

[Grandad4]

If you have lots of trees to deal with, I'd suggest you detail your specfic work flow for getting things done. For example, I'm wondering if a separate, towable chipper wouldn't give you more flexibility in handling logs and slash. Having it attached to the tractor pretty much means you must take the rig into the woods in order to use it, and then the tractor is not available to jockey the material around, leaving you moving the material by hand. You may find yourself endlessly putting the chipper on and taking it off. The better you can plan how your work is to be done, the better you'll understand what equipment will work best, and what features would be important when buying.

 

[BlessedMess]

... d. MF 2706E $39.8k
e. Kub 47TLB $54k

So, the MF2706E is the lowest price. It beats all the others in engine & PTO HP, and it has a class II 3-point hitch, with bushings that take it down to a class I. This seems like an advantage to us, as it gives us a wider range of devices that we can connect onto the back. We're not going to do any row crops, so it's perhaps unlikely that we'll need really heavy implements to drag behind, but who knows what we might be able to get used some day. The warranty is attractive: 2-year bumper-to-bumper and 5 year power train. The Kubota is the best backhoe, as it seems that model is configured especially for backhoe work. It's also the most expensive. We are leaning away from it, because we think that our backhoe work will be relatively simple trenches for conduits and water pipes. But, friends of ours have one that they really like, so that's an input we have to reckon with...
(ii) For that matter, how does Shibaura get 57HP and slightly large displacement in 4 cylinders (134 cu in) on the 2706E? It's 14% more HP than the JDs with only ~5% increase in displacement. It's 25% more HP than the Kubota. Is the different exhaust cleaning devices a factor here? (cf. next question.)
(iii) All of these tractors, except the MF 2706E, have diesel particulate filters (DPFs). The MF 2706E has exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) and a diesel oxidation catalyst (DOC) filter. Do these allow the high engine HP with slightly larger engine displacement? Or is Shibaura working some magic too?
(iv) Is the DPF a problem? It seems like they are relatively easy to clean. How long do they last? I read that they are expensive to replace, on the order of $1000; is that right? Does anyone know about maintenance intervals with EGR valves and DOCs? Thanks! --Ron

Hi Ron. Sounds like you and I are chasing the same tractor! If it is any assistance, some thoughts:

1) Had the exact same Shibaura engine in my previous tractor where it was rated for 65HP/54 PTO, and am a fan of it. Easy to maintain, reasonably smooth/quiet, no DPF or DEF, and trouble-free in the 190+ hours it has run. In the lighter 2706e, the only concern I'd have is traction without ballast. Personally think the Tier 4 rating with this engine is an ok thing -- it doesn't smoke and the exhaust smell doesn't knock you over like some older diesels do, and it is fairly fuel efficient for the HP it produces... ~1-1.5 GPH depending on RPMs and implement load. All of these Tier 4 engines have computer controls, and my guess is the ECM "tune" and less frequently some mechanical bits like larger injectors and/or different spec turbos allow the same engine to produce those 10-20 more HP than the "base" model. PTO HP is where it counts, but you may also want to focus too on the hydraulic flow rates if running a backhoe, chipper, etc. The tractor I had has a 10GPM implement flow rate, and it ran the backhoe very well even at 1600-1800 RPMs.

2) Really like the 2706E because of the above AND it is offered with the hydro, class 2 3PH, telescoping link ends, higher flow hydraulic pump (~+2 gpm over competitors' implement rating), and just seems like a solid tractor for the money. If you have a good M-F dealer nearby, it would be my top choice. The close second (tie) in my case is the Kubota MX5800 (std HST and also telescoping class 2 hitch, but does have a DPF) and the Kioti DK5510 with powershuttle (no telescoping links or hydro option unfortunately, and think it may have a DPF too). I'm trying to avoid DPF because long-term it is a likely expense... many owners of similar displacement car engines (e.g. 2.0 VW TDIs) are replacing cracked and malfunctioning DPFs after 5+ years. My TDI has been trouble free, but the regen cycles are a pain and something I don't want to worry about in my tractor.

3) Your prices seem way high... maybe because it's NORCAL. Would think $36-37k should get you a 2706E with the FEL, backhoe, and one detent remote before tax, and maybe $39-$40k for the Kubota MX5800 and ~$32k for the Kioti comparably equipped. For your uses, the Kubota MX5800 still has a really impressive BH and much higher PTO HP... the L47 TLB is probably overkill on the BH, and although it has some nifty features, not worth the extra coin in my opinion and it isn't eligible for the 6 year powertrain warranty or 0% financing Kubota is offering.

I've decided not to buy the backhoe for my next tractor. Can rent a Kubota mini excavator for $125 for 4 hours, or $200 for 8. It is much better/faster at everything I'd do with it except travel speed. And while they are "quick attach" (plan 20-30 min.), they still have to be stored somewhere and greased regularly. And neither attaching, storing nor greasing are particularly enjoyable. My BH cost was "only" $7,100 installed which is pretty reasonable and it was convenient for odd job tasks, but a rented excavator would have been faster, cheaper, and wouldn't have tied up funds I should have used instead to buy 3PH implements like a box blade, plow, cutter/mower, rake, etc.

 

[jenkinsph]

From the list of machines you listed I would go for the Kubota L47. With lots of tree work add a grapple and make sure you have the hydraulics to operate it figured in. A skid plate to protect the bottom of the machine is important when working in brush and downed trees. A four post rops/fops is important in the woods imo. Tripple front and rear hydraulics are good to allow you to use a variety of tools. The L47 has all of these features.

I have a JD 110tlb similar in size and capability to the L47 but these are no longer available new. I would also recommend a stand alone chipper, easier to use and keep the tractor free to work.

 

[allenron]

Just some thoughts -

The backhoe attachment - that's going to be an $8K to $10K addition to the price of any tractor of the size you are looking at. Are you REALLY going to need a backhoe - year after year - to justify that cost? Can you invite your friend, with his backhoe, over to do what work you need. Maybe have a contractor do any digging you need. Its just - I see a lot of folks buying the backhoe attachment and then in a year or so - they are asking for advice on the best way to store their backhoe attachment.

PTO driven chipper - I've always had one and they are very useful. I've had/have Wallenstein. Be careful on sizing the chipper. Mine is a BX62s and will handle up to 6" trees/logs. You indicate the need for a chipper that will handle 8" material. Before you make the leap to a chipper - go out on your property, limb a tree that is 8" on the butt and try dragging that tree thirty feet. Fun isn't it. Now, imagine you want to chip one hundred trees that are 8" on the butt.

I maintain a pine forrest on my property. I cut & chip 750-900 small( 6" & smaller ) pines every spring. This is a two to three week job every spring and the first day is fun - the remainder, not so much.

Tractor sizing - I'm in full agreement with the philosophy - determine the size tractor you need and then go one size bigger. Over time - "things" - will pop up that will make you wish you had a bit more tractor.

Hi oosik: You raise some valid points. Yes, indeed, the backhoe is an expensive accessory. Our friends don't have a trailer for their Kubota, and we plan on definitely not having one as well. We'd need a larger pickup (3/4 ton, I think) to pull--that's one thing, and without a trailer we can tell friends that "oh, sure, we'd like to help, but we don't have a trailer", and so on. Well, we hesitate to ask to use someone else's equipment, what with liabilities and things. We do have a regular backhoe operator that we use. He's good, and charges us very fairly ($250/hour; same for dozer work). But, I envision 250 ft. of trench (18 in. deep) from the electrical panel to one of the wells, two trenches, each about 100' for water lines from the well, one 200' shallow trench from the new house/garage to the leach field, foundation for garage and house, and that work takes us out about 3 years. There's already a small cabin on another part of our property (32 acres). It needs a better electric feeder to the well house, and that's a 100 ft. trench too. We could probably have the backhoe guy do all this, but it would cost more than buying our own tool. Also, we have a lot of dead pine trees. For the forseeable future, we'll be cutting them down, dragging them out of the woods on narrow paths to a flat site where we are setting up to mill and chip them. So, we plan on using the backhoe to lift them up by the end with a chain and then drag them out lengthwise through the trees. I think we will also have some trenching for water to a vegetable garden and orchard. Backhoe seems justifiable. But, we did ask ourselves that very same question--do we really need this gizmo?--when we saw the price tag.

I guess that you'd recommend the Wallenstein chipper? We buck the logs to 18" rounds, split them (27 ton Echo splitter), and split them again and again to feed into our current 3 inch chipper. It's tedious. If we could split the rounds into quarters and toss them into a larger chipper, we'd be content. Yes, agreed, even dragging around a small tree (8" bole) by hand is very hard work. We thought about a grapple bucket for the front-end loader, but with our tight roads through the woods, we could not get through carrying the log crosswise. We have some oak, but I doubt that we will chip much of that. Probably the smaller branches, but the larger pieces we will probably cut for firewood.

It appears that you're doing already, except on a much larger scale, what we have on our agenda. Is there anything else that you would recommend that we buy for forest maintenance? Thanks for your comments. Very much appreciated! --Ron

 

[allenron]

If you have lots of trees to deal with, I'd suggest you detail your specfic work flow for getting things done. For example, I'm wondering if a separate, towable chipper wouldn't give you more flexibility in handling logs and slash. Having it attached to the tractor pretty much means you must take the rig into the woods in order to use it, and then the tractor is not available to jockey the material around, leaving you moving the material by hand. You may find yourself endlessly putting the chipper on and taking it off. The better you can plan how your work is to be done, the better you'll understand what equipment will work best, and what features would be important when buying.

Hi Grandad4: You might well be right about the convenience of a towable chipper. We don't plan on getting the chipper right away, just the backhoe, front loader, and maybe a scraper box at first. Our strategy is to fell the trees in the woods, pull them out lengthwise with a chain attached to the backhoe and the trunk end of the tree, and stack them on a flat pad area we have on the property. Right now, there's a pretty good sugar pine and ponderosa log deck there. Once the trees are at the pad, we'll mill the good ones into lumber, and buck, split, and chip the ones that aren't suitable for milling. So, if we have a PTO chipper, you're right, couldn't do all of this at the same time; we'd have to take off the backhoe and attach the chipper. We do have a small 3 inch Echo chipper that works well for small branches, sticks, and twigs. Your thinking now has me thinking that maybe we ought to lease Vermeer 1000 or something first and see how it goes. One hesitation I have about the towable chipper is that our friends might start asking to bring it over to their place "just for the afternoon". Ha! Well, I guess we shall burn that bridge when we come to it. Thanks! --Ron