Need some help troubleshooting hydraulics

[Shredder]

The 3ph hydraulics on my compact IH 254 stopped working the other day after a weekend of shredding. No warning or nothing. I shredded, parked the tractor, and the next time I fired it up: nothing. No 3ph movement at all.

The only hydraulics on the tractor is the 3ph. I have some water in the oil and was gonna change it. I'm getting fluid moving through the system and some pressure from the pump.

Can someone help me troubleshoot this? I have very little experience with hydraulics but I have worked on other parts of the tractor and on various vehicles. The folks over at yesterdaystractors didn't offer much help. I think their threads get buried pretty fast, or something.

Norm

 

[zzvyb6]

Well, start with the mechanicals. Is there a valve lockout (twist knob)?. Are the arms up or down? Oil level up, filter plugged. hissing sound from a stuck poppet valve, bent control rod, rock or branch stuck in mechanism. Have at it tonight. call us in the morning.

 

[Kernopelli]

Norm, I have an '83 Mitsubishi MTE 2000D which is the grey version of your tractor. My 3 point quit functioning several years ago and it was caused by a roll pin that had worked itself out of the rockshaft that passes through the top of the 3 point hydraulic housing. The pin is located on the right side and is in the end of the shaft by the top lift arm of the 3 point. The pin holds the position control sensing rod. The rod runs to the lift control and is part of its linkage system. Unless the pin is loose and sticking out it is hard to see. I originally found this to be the problem by looking under the seat and you will be able to see the rod I am referring to, it is threaded with a spring on the end. With the tractor running, try using a screw driver or short pry bar and where the rod passes through that part of the control, move the control back and forth and see if the 3 point functions. You will probably need to have the 3 point lift control in the "up" position. If the 3 point works by doing this it is either the pin or the linkage is out of adjustment.

The 3 point on a larger Mitsubishi I owned quit suddenly and I found that the hydraulic control valve for the 3 point had a tiny piece of RTV sealant in one of the orifices inside. It was a pain to figure that one out but it saved buying a $900 valve.
You can find some of the schematics for your tractor at :
Case IH
Click on "parts and service" then click on "Begin your search for Parts right here", then enter the model number (254).
Hope this helps.

Darryl

 

[Shredder]

Well, start with the mechanicals. Is there a valve lockout (twist knob)?. Are the arms up or down? Oil level up, filter plugged. hissing sound from a stuck poppet valve, bent control rod, rock or branch stuck in mechanism. Have at it tonight. call us in the morning.

Thanks for the fast reply. I am not familiear with the "lock out". I'll have to read up some more before I can answer that. The arms are down. Oil level is full. I removed the filter; still no luck. I don't hear any hissing. I don't see any trash or sticks around the linkage. I'll look more in the morning when there is better light.

Norm

 

[Shredder]

Norm, I have an '83 Mitsubishi MTE 2000D which is the grey version of your tractor. My 3 point quit functioning several years ago and it was caused by a roll pin that had worked itself out of the rockshaft that passes through the top of the 3 point hydraulic housing. The pin is located on the right side and is in the end of the shaft by the top lift arm of the 3 point. The pin holds the position control sensing rod. The rod runs to the lift control and is part of its linkage system. Unless the pin is loose and sticking out it is hard to see. I originally found this to be the problem by looking under the seat and you will be able to see the rod I am referring to, it is threaded with a spring on the end. With the tractor running, try using a screw driver or short pry bar and where the rod passes through that part of the control, move the control back and forth and see if the 3 point functions. You will probably need to have the 3 point lift control in the "up" position. If the 3 point works by doing this it is either the pin or the linkage is out of adjustment.

The 3 point on a larger Mitsubishi I owned quit suddenly and I found that the hydraulic control valve for the 3 point had a tiny piece of RTV sealant in one of the orifices inside. It was a pain to figure that one out but it saved buying a $900 valve.
You can find some of the schematics for your tractor at :
Case IH
Click on "parts and service" then click on "Begin your search for Parts right here", then enter the model number (254).
Hope this helps.

Darryl

I have the seat and the other body parts above the hitch cover off already. I've seen the spring-loaded arm you're talkin' about. I'll look at it better in the morning and get back with ya. Thanks for the idea and link.

Norm

 

[Shredder]

@Darryl,

I checked this morning and I don't think my linkage has slipped as you described. I attached an image for you to look at. Hit me I misunderstood you.

Norm

 

[Shredder]

Well, start with the mechanicals. Is there a valve lockout (twist knob)?. Are the arms up or down? Oil level up, filter plugged. hissing sound from a stuck poppet valve, bent control rod, rock or branch stuck in mechanism. Have at it tonight. call us in the morning.

The IT shop manual doesn't mention anything about a lockout valve that I can see. There is an adjustment to control the speed of fall on the 3ph arms. All the linkage looks good; no bends or missing parts that I can tell. And still no hissing.

I guess I'm looking for general advice about whether I should consider this a pump problem or something on the other end. I can post images if that will help.

Norm

 

[Kernopelli]

Norm, The lock out valve that was referred to is described as the "flow control knob" under the "hydraulic lift system"/troubleshooting section of my I&T manual, it is the adjustment for the speed at which the 3 point lowers. If it is turned all the way open ( open should be all the way counterclockwise while looking at it) it lowers the hitch fast, turned all the way closed-it locks the 3 point on the down stroke) On my tractor it under and between your legs while seated, on yours it is probably on the trans housing behind the shift lever.

In the first picture you posted, I cant see if the pin is there or not. It is there to keep the plate on the rock shaft in a fixed position to push/pull the sensing rod as the rockshaft turns (if that makes sense to you) if the plate that the sensing rod attaches to moves freely (swivels) on the rckshaft- the pin has fallen out or sheared off, if it doesn't, it is probably not your problem. Have you tried to function the 3 point manually as I described? A better way to do that might be to take the sensing rod off at the rockshaft end by removing the cotter pin on the pivot. With the tractor running and the 3 point's lever in the fully or half "raised" position, manually push/pull the sensing rod and/or use a screw driver to push/pull the piece that the sensing rod goes through under the seat area. If the hitch works that will tell you if it is in the linkage system. If the hitch doesn't raise after doing this it could be a worn o ring in your pump, a worn control valve o ring, an obstruction in the control valve,bad o ring on the 3 points hydraulic piston etc.

Darryl

 

[Shredder]

Norm, The lock out valve that was referred to is described as the "flow control knob" under the "hydraulic lift system"/troubleshooting section of my I&T manual, it is the adjustment for the speed at which the 3 point lowers. If it is turned all the way open ( open should be all the way counterclockwise while looking at it) it lowers the hitch fast, turned all the way closed-it locks the 3 point on the down stroke) On my tractor it under and between your legs while seated, on yours it is probably on the trans housing behind the shift lever.

My "flow control knob" is in the same location as yours; just between my legs under the seat. I have not adjusted it in a very long time.

In the first picture you posted, I cant see if the pin is there or not. It is there to keep the plate on the rock shaft in a fixed position to push/pull the sensing rod as the rockshaft turns (if that makes sense to you) if the plate that the sensing rod attaches to moves freely (swivels) on the rckshaft- the pin has fallen out or sheared off, if it doesn't, it is probably not your problem. Have you tried to function the 3 point manually as I described? A better way to do that might be to take the sensing rod off at the rockshaft end by removing the cotter pin on the pivot. With the tractor running and the 3 point's lever in the fully or half "raised" position, manually push/pull the sensing rod and/or use a screw driver to push/pull the piece that the sensing rod goes through under the seat area. If the hitch works that will tell you if it is in the linkage system. If the hitch doesn't raise after doing this it could be a worn o ring in your pump, a worn control valve o ring, an obstruction in the control valve,bad o ring on the 3 points hydraulic piston etc.

Darryl

The rockshaft pin is still in place, unsheared. With the engine running at 1,300rpm, the 3ph lever in the up position, I was able to move the lever on the other end of the sensing rod with no affect. Nothing happened.

If there are no other easy options to check, of the other options you listed, which is the most likely cause of my problem? Or should I ask, which is the easiest to check? And, could the water in my oil have something to do with it? I have already changed it once, but could not get it all out the first time. I intended to change it again, but would like to fix my problem first.

Norm

 

[Kernopelli]

I don't think water in the system would keep it from functioning. Liquids don't compress like gases do ( Like having air in the line). Water might cause extended wear damage etc but unless a seal or something is already worn out, I would think water should allow it to make equivalent hydro pressure as oil, then again because it isn't as thick as the oil maybe it doesn't create as effective of seal.....

BUMMER. This is where it probably gets stickier. I would start by checking the hydraulic pressure. In the manual under "hydraulic lift system/ test and adjust" it describes how to test the system pressure. The relief is supposed to open at +/- 2000psi , so use a 3000psi gauge. They're pretty cheap- I paid about $15 for mine 4-5 yrs ago. See if the system is making 2000 or so psi. If not, check the pump, it is actually pretty easy to take off ( I know first hand unfortunately) and see how the seals look. If the system makes good pressure, I'd check the o ring on the 3 point's hydraulic piston. If that is OK then I'd check the relief valve to make sure it isn't stuck open and check the control valve for worn seals/ obstructions. I have had the latter of those problems on a Mitsubishi (grey CIH 284) I used to have, It had been "reconditioned" and they had used orange RTV sealant on the hydraulic case and a tiny piece of it found its way into the system and blocked a tiny orifice in the valve. It worked fine about the first 5 hours I owned it and suddenly quit like yours did. All this really isn't as hard as it all sounds, just a little daunting to think about doing it the first time. I had never worked on a tractor in my life when I had the problem with that 3 point but it turned out to not be too difficult using the I&T manual.Good Luck,
Darryl

 

[Shredder]

Thanks Darryl, you've been a lot of help. I'll get on this in the morning. But don't wander off too far, I'm sure I'll be back

And I apologize for missing your post in my first thread. I quit watching it when I thought it had been abandoned

Norm

 

[Shredder]

Well, 1 step forward and 1 step back. I'm not sure I've located the proper plug/port to screw the pressure gauge into. The IT shop manual says it's on the right side. There are 2 plugs on the right side; 1 on the bottom center and the other on the right (port) side of the Drop Speed Control Valve, on the front of the hitch cover. Neither registered any pressure when the engine was running (although I know that oil is flowing through the system when the engine is running).

The only pressure line coming from the pump comes in on the other side, the left side, above the relief valve. And there is one plug/port on that side, just below the relief valve. I'll have to get some nipples and couplings if I'm to hook the gauge to that port.

Darryl, on anyone familiar with this tractor, do you know which plug/port is the correct choice for testing the pressure? I hate to think I've already tested the correct port

 

[Kernopelli]

Sorry to say I haven't done it on my tractor and after going out and looking at mine, I just can't tell without taking everything off to see better. My manual says to remove the "pipe plug" in the hydraulic housing cylinder cover to install the gauge. That might be the plug you described next to the speed control. The cylinder is centered in the hydraulic housing and faces forward so it should be under the seat, like the speed control. It says to lower the hitch (have lever in down position), unhook the sensing rod, remove pipe plug from hydraulic housing cylinder cover and install pressure gage in test port. Operate engine at high idle speed, hold hitch control lever in raise position and observe pressure reading when relief valve opens.

Did you mover the 3ph control lever to "raise position" when you checked it? I am certain this is critical because flow is likely diverted from the cylinder in the down position.

Darryl

 

[Shredder]

Your manual seems to be worded better than mine.

I tried the gauge in the pipe port next to the drop speed control valve, just under the front of the seat. I had the sensing rod disconnected and I had the position lever in the "raise" position at RPMs from 900-2,400. The gauge didn't move

So I removed the relief valve for inspection. I did find a couple of rusty looking bits deep in the housing. They looked large enough to be a problem. However, I saw no rust on the inside of the housing. I cleaned the housing, reassembled the innards, replaced the whole apparatus, and fired the engine up. No luck; still no 3ph movement.

The counter guy at our NAPA said he suspected the pump to be the problem. However, I'm still unsure about the pressure.

 

[bones1]

Can you connect the pressure gauge directly to the pump or a hose coming from the pump?.How's your hydraulic filter?.

 

[Shredder]

Hi bones 1,

No, I cannot connect the gauge to the pump or in-line between the pump and downstream valves The pressure line coming from the pump is pre-bent steel and has special built-in fittings on each end. This little compact tractor doesn't have many customization possibilities. However when I loosen the end at the reservoir when the tractor is running, oil comes squirting out. So there is 'some' pressure in the pressure line.

I removed the filter because it is deteriorating and needs replacement, and to remove the possibility of that being a problem. Right now I'm running with no filter I hope to remedy that this week.

 

[Kernopelli]

Well, your knocking the list down, and that's good. It's not the relief valve or the control linkage. That pretty much leaves the pump or control valve. The pump may be moving fluid but what seems like a lot of psi can be really deceiving. To rule out the pump its going to HAVE TO BE tested with an accurate gauge and I'm not sure just how to do that. I know what you mean by one hydraulic line, etc. The only thing I could recommend to do without hooking the gauge to the end hydraulic line where it enters the hydro housing which would dead head the pump and probably hard to do because of the type of fitting on the end is to cut the hard line and put a "T" in it for the gauge....that's easy for me to say though because I've already had to cut mine and plumb it for my front end loader. Discount hydraulics has 1/2" compression fittings for the hard line, if you want to go that route and you could just cap off the "t" when the gauge isn't connected (or even just leave the gauge but it might be in harms way because of the line routing.) Flareless Compression Hydraulic Tube Fittings (My line was actually 12mm but I used the 1/2" and cranked it down HARD and it has worked fine. If yours are 12mm, "EFC"- a member on this forum carries 12 mm fittings and can be reached at 509-374-3398 ext 2 for service).

Something else to think about is maybe you aren't getting a pressure reading because the problem IS the control valve. It's a 50/50 proposition at this point which way you want to go. Maybe it is easier/makes more sense to check the control valve next and if you don't find anything there go back to testing the pump. Just my 2 cents.

BTW- discount hydraulics was pretty fast and their salesmen were very knowledgeable, they helped me figure out what I needed and got it to me within 3-4 days and was cheap to boot if it comes down to having to cut the line.

Darryl

 

[Shredder]

I'm going to query the Case/IH dealer Monday about where to attach the gauge. I think that is easier than removing more bolts or cutting the hard line Then I'll know for sure about the pump. Accessing the control valve requires unhooking the shredder, and removing the hitch cover with the lift arms; not looking forward to that. And I'm still concerned about where that relief valve trash came from.

I'm surprised you had to tap into the steel pressure line to run an aux. On the parts website you posted a link to they list an adapter that attaches to the left side of the hydro reservoir for running aux attachments.

On the positive side, I'm getting to know this machine better every day

.....it's raining and the grass is getting deeper every day

 

[Kernopelli]

Well actually, I didn't even know about the CIH website until after doing the end loader. It probably wouldn't have made a difference to have known the AUX was available at that time though, plumbing into the pressure side of the line is a common way to run to the FEL control valve and without a doubt much cheaper (which always appeals to my frugal side). I think going to the dealer is a good idea though, let us know what they say.
I scrapped my local dealer long ago for my tractor issues. I have been several times and as soon as I tell them it is a Mitsubishi/grey model 254 they act like there is nothing they can do and I don't know what I'm talking about. They apparently want everyone to think IH made these tractors and there are no similarities....it really burns my biscuits, if you know what I mean!
Darryl

 

[JerryG]

Norm,
Check the quick connectors if your tractor has any. They are without a doubt the number one hydraulic problem on compact tractors. They become disconnected which stops the flow. They may look like they are connected and not be, so check each of them. They may seem like they are seated when pulled on and they may look like they are seated but they may not be. I have seen tractors that had to have all of them disconnected and reconnected just to find the one with the problem.