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  1. #1
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    Default Power beyond for remote hydraulics

    I'm looking into adding remote hydraulics to my tractor, a Jinma 354. This will be the first time I've ever done a hydraulic modification, so I'm looking for advice. I've spent a lot of time reading the archives, but I still have some questions.

    Currently the tractor has a FEL, 3-point hitch and power steering running off the hydraulic pump. The FEL is plumbed open-center, although it has an unused power beyond port. Downstream of the FEL is a priority valve that splits the flow between the steering and the 3PH, giving priority to steering.

    The question is whether to plumb remote hydraulics as open-center or power beyond.

    It seems to me that the simplest thing to do would be to plumb the remotes open-center. I could just take one hose off the FEL valve, put it onto the remote valve, and add one hose between the valves and I'm done. Total cost is one hose and one valve. While this would work, if I were ever to operate both valves together it would cause problems. The only reliefs in my system are in the valves, and I'm worried that with two valves operating the pump pressure would blow out the pump even if the individual valves were within their limits. Am I right about this? Even if the pump doesn't blow, would the performance be acceptable?

    I could solve this problem by plumbing in a system relief valve, but it seems to me that going to power-beyond would be no more work or money and would offer other benefits.

    I'm considering two power-beyond configurations. The first is almost as simple as the open-center one: use the FEL power-beyond and put an open-center valve downstream of it for the remotes. I buy an open-center valve for the remotes and tap the existing power-beyond port on the FEL valve for the input of the remotes. The hose that is currently on the output of the FEL valve goes on the output of the remote valve. The output of the FEL gets returned to tank. Compared to the open-center option, this would require that I purchase a power-beyond sleeve and one additional hose, and figure out a way of tapping into the return.

    The second configuration is to make both the FEL and the remotes power-beyond. Power-beyond of one valve goes into the input of the other, power-beyond of that one connects to the current output of the FEL. Outputs of both valves tee and go to the tank. Compared to the previous option, I would have to buy a power-beyond valve instead of open-center (it's only $5 more), one additional hose, and a tee for the return.

    These are the three options I see, listed in increasing complexity. The increase in complexity is not huge -- a few more parts, a few more connections -- but it is meaningful. I was always taught to keep things as simple as possible, but no simpler! So I'm still weighing my options.

    I would appreciate any comments on my analysis and recommendations.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Super Member 3RRL's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power beyond for remote hydraulics

    quicksand,
    Are you sure the 354 uses only one pump for both fel and power steering? Most I've seen have a one pump for the power steering and one for the fel, rear remotes and 3pt etc.

    You are better off using the power beyond port in the fel valve to power your new remote valve.
    Get the power beyond sleeve for it and run it to your new valve. The fel valve should have a return to sump. The new remote valve will also need a return to sump. You can "T" that into the return to sump with the fel valve return to sump line. I'm pretty sure your system is open center.
    Rob-
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Power beyond for remote hydraulics

    Quote Originally Posted by 3RRL
    quicksand,
    Are you sure the 354 uses only one pump for both fel and power steering? Most I've seen have a one pump for the power steering and one for the fel, rear remotes and 3pt etc.
    I'm pretty sure, although I have a devil of a time following where all the hoses go. I'm mostly going by the manual which says the newer 354's only have one pump. If I crank the steering all the way to one side so that the cylinder starts to hiss the FEL moves a little, so I think they're connected...

    The fel valve should have a return to sump.
    I only count six hoses on the FEL valve -- two for the lift cylinder, two for the tilt cylinder, and one in and one out. So no return to sump that I can see. Adding a return to sump would be the biggest thing about using power beyond.

  4. #4
    Elite Member RonMar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power beyond for remote hydraulics

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksandfarmer
    I'm looking into adding remote hydraulics to my tractor, a Jinma 354. This will be the first time I've ever done a hydraulic modification, so I'm looking for advice. I've spent a lot of time reading the archives, but I still have some questions.Currently the tractor has a FEL, 3-point hitch and power steering running off the hydraulic pump. The FEL is plumbed open-center, although it has an unused power beyond port. Downstream of the FEL is a priority valve that splits the flow between the steering and the 3PH, giving priority to steering..
    Like Rob, I thought the 354's used a separate power steering pump. What you have described sounds just like my 284's hydraulics.

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksandfarmer
    The question is whether to plumb remote hydraulics as open-center or power beyond.
    Well these are basically the same thing, PB is just a high pressure rated passage thru an open center valve body. It is intended to provide the HP supply to the next valve downstream. You say you have an unused PB port on your FEL valve? You don't have a return line off of the FEL valve? Since the rest of the tractor hydraulics, mainly the 3PH are downstream, and it is a high pressure load when lifting, I would think that the PB outlet on the FEL valve would be used feeding this load as that is what it was designed for. Just so we are all on the same page here, what FEL/valve are you using on your machine. A pic of the valve would be good also.

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksandfarmer
    It seems to me that the simplest thing to do would be to plumb the remotes open-center. I could just take one hose off the FEL valve, put it onto the remote valve, and add one hose between the valves and I'm done. Total cost is one hose and one valve. While this would work, if I were ever to operate both valves together it would cause problems. The only reliefs in my system are in the valves, and I'm worried that with two valves operating the pump pressure would blow out the pump even if the individual valves were within their limits. Am I right about this? Even if the pump doesn't blow, would the performance be acceptable?.
    Your system is open centered, so any valves you add will also need to be open center, be it power beyond or with a simple low pressure return for the outlet(PB and return outlets combined) as the last valve in line. Again I need more info about your FEl valve. Safeties shouldn't be a problem as long as there are return lines from the valves. The safety is a spring loaded valve plunger on a seat. It has a low pressure return on the spring side and the other side is connected to the high pressure main/PB gallery in the valve. When the pressure exceeds the spring tension, the valve opens and dumps fluid to the low pressure return gallery. IF you only have one main line in and out of your valve now, you may be able to overpressur your pump now. IF you are lifting a load on both loader and 3PH at the same time, any overpressure has to force it's way all the way thru the system to the 3PH valve safety... As for operating valves together, again if plummed correctly with PB and return outlets, the upstream valve sends the fluid tothe cylinders and returning fluid goes to the return line. This deprives the downstream valve so it will not operate till you are done with the upstream valve.

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksandfarmer
    I could solve this problem by plumbing in a system relief valve, but it seems to me that going to power-beyond would be no more work or money and would offer other benefits..
    If properly plummed as PB, any detected overpressure by any safety should dump to a return line so i don't think any additional safeties should be needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksandfarmer
    I'm considering two power-beyond configurations. The first is almost as simple as the open-center one: use the FEL power-beyond and put an open-center valve downstream of it for the remotes. I buy an open-center valve for the remotes and tap the existing power-beyond port on the FEL valve for the input of the remotes. The hose that is currently on the output of the FEL valve goes on the output of the remote valve. The output of the FEL gets returned to tank. Compared to the open-center option, this would require that I purchase a power-beyond sleeve and one additional hose, and figure out a way of tapping into the return..
    Again your current config confuses me. If your current valve is designd with a power beyond sleeve, it may not be rated for much pressure on the return port(many are not). Since yours has one, I think it should be using it now to power the rest of your hydraulics with a separate return line to the reservoir(three mainlines in/out of the valve).

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksandfarmer
    The second configuration is to make both the FEL and the remotes power-beyond. Power-beyond of one valve goes into the input of the other, power-beyond of that one connects to the current output of the FEL. Outputs of both valves tee and go to the tank. Compared to the previous option, I would have to buy a power-beyond valve instead of open-center (it's only $5 more), one additional hose, and a tee for the return..
    That sounds to me like the way it should be, but lets make sure we have our terms straight. I would think it would be like this: PB outlet of the FEL valve feeds the inlet of the remote valve. The PB outlet of the remote valve feeds the steering and 3PH. Both Low Pressure return lines from the FEL and remote valve are "T"d together and go to the reservoir with no more restriction than would be provided by a filter.
    Ron

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Power beyond for remote hydraulics

    Quote Originally Posted by RonMar
    Just so we are all on the same page here, what FEL/valve are you using on your machine. A pic of the valve would be good also.
    Loader is a Koyker 160 with a Dinoil valve. The manual for the loader is here:

    http://www.koykermfg.com/Manuals/532006_135539.pdf

    On page 30 of the manual there is a set of diagrams for the valve hookup. Mine is set up just like the one that is labeled "Open Center."

    The hose that is labeled "In (Pressure)" goes to the pump and the one that is "Out (Tank)" goes to the steering and 3PH. The two hoses have quick-connects on them, and when the FEL is removed they connect to each other.

  6. #6
    Super Member 3RRL's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power beyond for remote hydraulics

    Then take that plug out (#1) and replace it with a power beyond sleeve (#2) to make it just like the valve labeled "POWER BEYOND" above. That will give your valve 7 hoses total now. (That's how mine is set up)

    Take the power beyond hose (new) and route it to your new valve. If your new valve has a power beyond sleeve in it, route a hose from there over to your power steering. You would also need to get a hose from the new valve to return to sump. If your new valve doesn't have a power beyond outlet, route the "OUT" to the power steering.

    It is always better to use the power beyond outlet to power a valve downstream.
    Rob-
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  7. #7
    Elite Member RonMar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power beyond for remote hydraulics

    Well from the diagram in your Koyker manual I would say your valve is plumed wrong for your particular application. It appears to be the same situation as my Prince valve was on my loader(return line plummed to steering/3PH). From the image of the valve used on your loader in the Koyker manual you linked to, I would say that it is a DN1-2 or a DNS-2 valve. At any rate, all the Dinoil monoblock valves(see spec sheet below) have a maximum tank pressure(backpressure on return port)rateing of 750 PSI(Prince rates their monoblock return ports at 500 PSI). If your return line is feeding the 3PH and you start working with a heavy impliment or trying to lift heavy stuff with the 3PH, you are going to exceed this by a good margine. In fact, I would guess that the safety valve on your 3PH control valve is set in excess of 2000PSI. If you lift up on something that stalls the 3PH, that 2000+PSI will be felt all the way back to your pump. I would guess that this will ultimately start your FEL valve leaking at the ends of the spools and dripping oil on your right boot like it did mine.

    The good news is that you can fix it with the install of the remote valve you are planning. The bad news is that it will require a little more work to find a low pressure return path to the reservoir. Configure your FEL valve for PB and feed the rear remote valve with this PB outlet. Buy or configure the remote valve for PB and use it's PB outlet to feed the steering and 3PH. Combine the low pressure return ports from both the FEL and remote valves("T") and route them without restriction back to the reservoir.

    If your 354 draws the steering from the main hydraulics like my 284 does(no separate steering hydraulic system), there should be a low pressure return line from the steering control valve at the base of the steering column that feeds back to the reservoir. On my tractor this is a hard line that runs down the left side of the transmission to the reservoir under the seat.

    Here is a link to the Dinoil monoblock spec sheet. It is in 3 languages with english in between the other two.

    http://www.bondioli-pavesi.com/servl...line&version=0
    Last edited by RonMar; 09-11-2007 at 09:46 PM.
    Ron

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Power beyond for remote hydraulics

    Ron --

    Thanks for the detailed response. I'm starting to wish I had posted this question under "Chinese Tractors" because it's starting to look like it's not really a general hydraulics question.

    You are confirming what I sort of suspected going in, that I want to replumb the whole thing using power-beyond.

    I'm away from my tractor right now, so I'll have to look at the routing of the steering return when I get back. Cutting into that is the only thing that gives me pause. Any thoughts about what kind of metal that is likely to be and what kind of fitting I need to put on it?

    Thanks.

  9. #9
    Elite Member RonMar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Power beyond for remote hydraulics

    Well without pics, I am just guessing. The ones on my 284 are plated steel. If I recall a TBN member Guiguiols(spelling) cut and welded in fittings on a hardline on his tractor to add a return filter. I think he weldd in 3/4" NPT male fittings to match the filter boss threads. It should be easy enough to tell if you have steel lines if you have a magnet handy.

    I know on mine the rear end of the hardline has a "Banjo" fitting on it into the side of the reservoir. The forward end of the return hardline has a "T" on it. These two forward fittings have two return hoses attached from the steering valve/vane pump. I think one returns fluid when the wheel is turned clockwise, and the other returns fluid when the wheel is turned counterclockwise.

    This is low pressure so in theory you could plumb the returns with garden hose. I suppose it would be possible to cut one of the steering return hoses and install a barbed "T" and clamps to attach your valve return hoses to if yours is configured like mine. I have contemplated doing this very thing on mine to add a return point.
    Ron

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