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  1. #1
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    Farmall H

    Default Farmall model H hydraulic problems

    Just bought a farmall H and on the way home it boiled over on the hydraulic tank. I had to road it for about 15 mile. The previous owner did an add on pump for all the hydraulics and with the mix of galvinized fitings and tees in the lines I am thinking it needs redone so I know it is right. I used to work on rock drills in the mine but am sure it has progressed beyound what I knew back then.

    I am not even sure of the type pump that he put onto it. I am not sure even if the valves are open or closed center. Iam wondering if it isn't doing abypass all the time is why it is getting that hot.

    tank and pump

    Pump

    valve body

    Sure has me scratching my head. I have a 13 GPM pump I bought to power a woodsplitter with I was thinking of replacing this pump with. I am looking to run FEL,3PH an a remote for a log spliter.
    Last edited by Drifter52; 10-20-2010 at 03:41 PM. Reason: fingers work faster than brain

  2. #2
    Super Member
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    all makes and models

    Default Re: Farmall model H hydraulic problems

    I'd never recommend a forty horsepower engine to run where a 5 to 8 horsepower would do the same.

    A farmall H with a loader and narrow front is dangerous! No power steering makes it even more of a bear!!!!

    Coould have had a lot of condensation in the oil do the same.

  3. #3
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    Branson 2400H

    Default Re: Farmall model H hydraulic problems

    Galvanized fittings and hydraulics do not mix. The oil will erode the galvanizing off of the fittings and contaminate every in the system.

    Looking at the picture of the pump is there two pressure lines or does the smaller line return to tank? If they are both pressure lines the pump must have a priority flow valve and both of these lines must be connected to an open center circuit or they will cause heat generation.


    Good Luck

    Roy
    Artificial Intelligence will never overcome natural stupidity.

    Branson 2400H MMM & FEL

    JD 112

    BX1850 gone but not forgotten

  4. #4
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    Farmall H

    Default Re: Farmall model H hydraulic problems

    It is my guess that they are both pressure lines. I know it did get hot enough during the road trip to push out a lot of oil. I just got this tractor for the purpose to cut wood and power the spliter as I didn't want to drag more pieces to the timber then needed.

    I want to set this up right so my question would be what pump and valve setup will I need to feed a FEL,3PH and a remote for the log spliter? I don't believe the pump on there is big enough for my needs. I have no idea the history of the pump or valves and don't want to do it haphazzardly and end up redoing it.

  5. #5
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    Branson 2400H

    Default Re: Farmall model H hydraulic problems

    Drifter,
    pump size would be decided by the size of cylinders you want to operate and how fast you want them to move. Since I presume this will be driven by the engine HP to certain extent should not be an issue.

    I do not know what the "factory" pump size was on an "H" or if these only came with add on hydraulics.

    My best guess would be in the 6-9 GPM range but that is just a guess. I think our 5,000 Ford had a 9 GPM pump and it would operate every piece of equipment I hooked to it just fine.

    Roy
    Artificial Intelligence will never overcome natural stupidity.

    Branson 2400H MMM & FEL

    JD 112

    BX1850 gone but not forgotten

  6. #6
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    Kuborta B2400, L2900, L4330; Caterpillar D3B, John Deere 455D

    Default Re: Farmall model H hydraulic problems

    Drifter 52:

    The first tractor I remember driving was a Farmall H that my father bought on the black market when he returned from the Air Corps at the end of WWII. It had a home made front-end loader (I recall some parts were wood) and I don't recall turning it over or that it was hard to steer, but I was only ten or so years old at the time, so my memory is not the best. Your picture reminds me that the only plastic on those machines were the gearshift knob and steering wheel.

    Anyhow, your problem may be a combination of too much heat and too little dissipation. Let me make some assumptions: pump is 8 gpm, lines are 1/2", and the pump body, pump lines, directional control valve, and reservoir hold 4 gallons. At 8gpm the 4g of fluid circulates two times per minute.

    The pump appears to be a single section gear pump with a flow divider on the output, which is either a priority flow divider or a proportional divider. One output appears to return to directly to the reservoir. Depending on how the output is directed, the flow divider can cause the pressure drop in the line going from pump to reservoir (tank) to be the same as the pressure drop in the entire flow path for the other pump output stream.

    The next part is really guessing (as if the above were not). Say the path through which the other pump output flows consists of 2 10 foot sections of 1/2" hose with fittings and a regular (or mitered) 90 deg elbow on each end, together with a variety of nipples, etc. The flow path also includes the flow divider which almost certainly imposes a significant pressure loss, and the directional control valve which has its own significant pressure losses.

    These pressure losses can add up to more than you expect. For example, 10gpm of typical warm (90-100deg f) hydraulic fluid flowing through 10 feet of 1/2" hose with end fittings and an elbow on each end incurs a pressure loss of about 30 psi (that's the only number I can remember from a recent project).

    Fors the sake of argument, assume that the accumlated pressure losses in the circuit are 140 psi (I suspect it is more than that). Since the flow divider on the pump probably imposes that same pressure loss on the flow into the reservoir, the full 8gpm incurs a pressure loss of 140 psi.

    A rule of thumb (scientifically based) is that the temperature of typical hydraulic fluid increases 1 deg F for every 140 psi of pressure drop that is due to friction (and all these losses are due to friction, not to doing work by moving a piston in a cylinder). So, if you fluid passes through the system twice each minute, the temperature of the fluid increases by 2 deg F per minute.

    If your 15 mile trip took an hour (I recall a maximum road speed of roughly that), the hydraulic fluid circulated 120 times and its temperature was raised 120 deg F above ambient temperature. If ambient temperature was 90deg F, the fluid temperature would have increased to 210 deg F.

    Of course all that energy from the friction does not remain in the fluid; some passes into the hoses, fittings, pump body, etc. But once those parts heat up the only additional heat they absorb is what they radiate into the surroundings. If those surroundings are also hot, and if the sun is adding more heat to them, they may remove very little heat.

    And if any of my assumptions are too low (the pump is 8 gpm rather than 12), the heat increase is much greater (more than just a proportional 150% in this case).

    Of course, you could have a fully blocked pump (deadhead), but I doubt it because the heat buildup then would be very fast. If the pressure relief valve is set at 1400 psi, the each time the fluid passes through the system the temperature rises by 10 deg F (1400/140 x 1), which is 20 deg F in this case. It would be boiling in 10-15 minutes in that case.

    If it were me, I would remove the flow divider from the pump, combine both pump flows into the working circuit to the control valve rather than send one to the tank, clean up the hoses (new hoses, limit elbows, etc.), and replace the tank with a 10-15 gal one. I think there is a good chance that will solve your problem. If not, you will need the new hoses and tank for the 13 gpm pump anyway. Save the other pump because as long as those old cast iron Farmalls last it will wear out the current pump.


    I hope Art is right about the H having 40 horsepower, but I recall it being somewhere around 30. Do you know?

    Keep us posted on the project.

    Good luck

  7. #7
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    Farmall H

    Default Re: Farmall model H hydraulic problems

    Farmerford I gave a quick glance through the books he gave me but didn't see the rated HP. I can remember as a kid seeing several farmers around still using them to pull the grain wagons. Only saw a couple tipped over and they were usually doing something they knew better then as in mowing a steep bank.

    Very informative on the information you have shared with me. I am looking forward to this adventure of getting this old gal into what will work better for me. I will ask a guy at work that grew up around them what the HP rate was. It will be Monday before I get a chance to do anything as I am working 12 hour shifts and even though too late I like my beauty rest.

    I don't believe my valve is PB equiped so at the very least I am thinking a new valve is in order. I can take a picture of what is plumbed and make a diagram of how it is plumbed in so maybe someone can make heads from tails of what has been done.

    By the book the belly pump can make 800 PSI at high idle and has a oil reserve capacity of 8 Gal. Doubt I will be using that feature.


    Farmall H Power:
    Drawbar (claimed): 17-19 hp [12.7 kW]

    Belt (claimed): 21-24 hp [15.7 kW]

    Drawbar (tested): 24.17 hp [18.0 kW]

    Belt (tested): 26.20 hp [19.5 kW]



    Drifter52
    Last edited by Drifter52; 10-21-2010 at 04:52 PM. Reason: Added information

  8. #8
    Super Star Member J_J's Avatar
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    Default Re: Farmall model H hydraulic problems

    If the tractor has a HP rating around 30 HP, you could run a hyd pump, at 10 GPM's at 3000 psi, and use only 21 HP, or pump 14 GPM and use 29 HP.

    At 2500 rpm, the pump displacement would be 1.3 cu in. and at 3000 rpm, would be 1.1 cu in,
    J.J.

    When I works, I works hard. When I sits and thinks, I goes to sleep.

    Git er done.

  9. #9
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    Farmall H

    Default Re: Farmall model H hydraulic problems

    The pump I have now is a 13 GPM double stage. Will this be an issue it being a double stage?

    I am also assuming the way to plumb this is to use a 3 spool valve and the remote I want to the power beyond. I am also looking to make a bigger resivor tank of at least 20 gallon and adding an oil cooler.

    Drifter52

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Farmall model H hydraulic problems

    https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.a...V-3-Y&catname=

    Would this be the right valve for my needs? What options would I have to select in the 3 sections on the drop down menu? I will be running the hoist, break out for bucket roll and 3PH on the main valve.

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