Top N Tilt for Dozer ?

[fordgpw]

Hi all,
I wish to put a industrial Gannon box with hydraulic rippers on my John Deere 350C dozer.
I would like to do so with minimal pain, and not reinvent the wheel so to speak, There are many post for the tractors but I have not seen any for the dozer's. The 350 is set up with hydraulic lines with quick connects at the rear for the backhoe shown in the attached files. Any advice and or recommendations would be appreciated, thanks Scott

 

[kennyd]

Welcome to TBN

Are there two lines or three?

You can plumb a new joystick valve to operate your TnT cylinders just like the tractor guys do...you will have to verify whether your system is OC (open center) or CC (closed center), the max PSI and GPM specs also need to be know to properly match the new valve.

 

[Farmerford]

Fordgpw:

I will trade this for some later help on what your name implies.

That is a nice looking rig. I have a similar arrangement with a 455D, but my backhoe is the older 9300 model with the barrel shaped swing motor rather than the newer swing cylinder feature of yours. My swing motor is leaking badly around the upper shaft seal and I am going to rebuild it on my Thanksgiving holiday.

These pictures show how someone else did it.

ImageShack Album - 10 images Seems to me the hydraulics will be the hardest part.

I suspect the hydraulics are about the same on your 350 as my 455. There are two 1" hoses that quick connect to the backhoe, as you said. One is a pressure line from the power beyond port on the front end loader directional control valve, and the other is a return to tank. As you also know, when the backhoe is removed those hoses must be connected to each other so the power beyond from the FEL valve has a path to the tank on the crawler. My FEL valve has three sections: one for the booms, one for the bucket, and a third spare that is not used now but is available for a 4-way bucket.

If only one rear cylinder were needed, and if your 350 also has that third FEL valve section, you could use it by just running a couple of 3/8" lines from the FEL valve.

But I assume you will need three circuits: one for the lift cylinder on the TPH you are going to build, one for the tilt, and one for the tip.

That means a new three spool valve with a flow rating to carry all the pump output. I believe the pump on the 455 is 23gpm, but I am not sure. If so a 25gpm valve will be adequate. I suspect you will have to buy a fairly expensive ($500 or more) sectional control valve from Surplus Center or the like and add a joystick kit for two of the spools.

Then you have to plumb the new valve into the power beyond flow coming out of the FEL valve. You have at least two choices:1. put the new valve in the PB line where the backhoe was (figuratively) or 2. put the new valve in the PB line where it exits the FEL valve. #1 is not very elegant, because you will need to have two 1" lines with quick disconnects on one end to connect to the backhoe pressure/return lines when you take the backhoe off; and those lines will snake from the rear (where they connect to the pressure/return lines), under the floor, and then up onto the side console where they will connect to the pressure and tank ports on the new three section valve. Then the six work lines from the three section valve will snake back down to the rear and attach to the lift, tilt, and tip cylinders. Although this approach is not elegant, it is probably the easiest to execute. But it is the most expensive because it will require two 1" quick disconnects and 12' or so of 1' hydraulic line.

Choice #2 is more professional. Break the pressure circuit where the PB line now leaves the FEL valve and insert the new valve there. There will be one line from the PB port of the FEL valve to the pressure port of the new valve and one line from the tank port of the new valve back down to the PB line you just disconnected. The problems with this approach are twofold: 1. the PB line from the FEL valve is, if I recall right, 1" metal tube and not easily bent, if at all; 2. the space around the FEL valve is pretty tight, and it will be hard to use the fairly stiff 1" hose in the short distance from the FEL valve PB port to the new valve pressure port. And you will have the same problem with the 1" return line from the new valve tank port to the end of the now disconnected PB line. Unless you have a storage rack full of various hydraulic fittings and the ability to make your own hoses, you might spend a whole day just getting these two lines hooked up.

I have to ask if the box blade will function very well behind the 350? I have a box blade and have a hard enough time on a small wheeled tractor looking back to see what is going on enough to control it. I am not sure I could even see the box blade behind the 455 without kneeling on the seat backwards. Controlling the height would be hard enough, but to make the judgements and (relatively) delicate adjustments required of the TNT (I am only guessing since I don't have one) would be nearly impossible.

If this does not discourage you, I have some thoughts on a quick and dirty way just to try it out. Got to run, but let me know if I should ramble on further.

Good luck and send us pictures.

 

[aczlan]

I would probably make a upside down U shaped frame that goes onto the 4 points that the backhoe hooks onto.
I would have the pins that go into the lower holes on the bracket also hold on the ends of the two lower links
At the top of the U shaped frame, I would weld one of these on each side Weld on Ball Ends.
Then I would put a hydraulic ram on each side going from the welded end to the lower links (to lift the implement and run the tilt part).
I would put a relief valve and a possibly a check valve (after the relief valve) on each of the cylinders so that you don't break anything.
Finally, I would install a ram with swivels on each end at the top of the U frame.

This would be controlled with either a 3 spool valve or a 1 spool valve and a 2 spool valve. one spool for each side and the last spool for the top and all hoses going to the hoses would be 3/8 or less.

Aaron Z

 

[AKwelder]

You might do some research, i bet JD or someone made a 3 point hitch for a 350. You would be almost there.

I KNOW they made rear ripper/scarifiers for them.

The hydraulics are most likely for a rear backhoe attachment that is quit common

 

[fordgpw]

Thanks all for your replies
Farmerford- I do have specific knowledge regarding the Ford GPW and work a day job @ G503.com is Military Vehicles, The WWII Military Jeep, Parts, Olive Drab and All Related Things., glad to help with your GPW and/or MB.
My backhoe is the 9550 model as I think you are aware and has the same 1" lines as yours. I also have the 4 in 1 bucket with no spare plumbing . You are right about option 2 being tight for space. Probably pursue option 1 but use 1 spool for the left lift arm, 1 spool for the right lift arm, 1 spool for the top link, and a 4th spool for the hydraulic rippers built into the Gannon box. Visibility on mine isn't to bad and I need to work on slopes.

Akwelder- they did make a fortory 3pt to fit the "quick attach" on the 350 but are very rare and do not have the hydraulic top or tilt. The ripper will fit directly into my machine using the "quick attach"

Kennyd- I believe normally open, with 2 hose, 1 pressure and 1 return


this picture that Farmerford linked

is identical to my "quick attach" The 3pt has hydraulic lift and manual top link , what I think I want to do is to put a cylinder at each arm (1 left and 1 right) anchoring the top of these cylinders at the top hole of the "quick attach" and have 1 cylinder for the top link? that way I will have lift and tilt? least thats the theory but have no need to learn the hard way so any wisdom you fellows could share is greatly appreciated, thanks again Scott

 

[Farmerford]

Scott:

Your plan sounds good to me with one question. As I understand it the lift arm cylinders will provide both lift for the box blade (when both cylinders are activated) and tilt (when only one cylinder is activated). Does that mean you must manually rebalance the cylinders each time you lift or lower the blade? Unless the two cylinders travel at exactly the same speed, won't some tilt get added or subtracted each time you raise or lower the blade?

But if you instead built a rockshaft (like the picture) and had one cylinder move the rockshaft for raise and lower, and a second cylinder as a connecting link between the rockshaft and one lower arm, you would adjust the relative positions of the lower arms (tilt) with that second cylinder and then the tilt would not be disturbed each time you raised and lowered the blade.


On a related point, have you figured an easy way to attach and detach the backhoe? I seem to take mine off and then put it back on a lot, and the best I could come up with is this. I turned a point on one end of about 6" of 1 1/2"rod and then tapped the center of the other (flat) end for a 1/2" NC hex screw. I then took a 1 1/2" forged pipe cap (flat top) and drilled a 9/16" hole through the center of the top. An 8" long 1/2 hex bolt goes through the pipe cap and screws into the pin. This creates a pin with a built in slide hammer that stays on the pin. Makes it really easy to get the pins out, particularly when you stand by the machine and wiggle the backhoe with the boom.
Then I made some shallow boxes out of 1/4" sheet for the stabilizer pads to rest in. The floor extends about 4" beyond the front and back of the boxes and the extension is turned up at about 45 degrees to form a sled. When these boxes are placed under the pads, the entire backhoe assembly can be moved forward or backwards with the bucket when the bucket rests on the ground. So I let the stabilizers down in the boxes, take most of the weight off the crawler with the stabilizers, shake the backhoe with the boom to let the top pins come out, then lift the backhoe clear of the lower hooks with the stabilizers, and finally pull the backhoe backwards away from the crawler with the bucket far enough to uncouple the hoses.

I also learned the hard way that the stabilizer cylinders will eventually leak down, so I used channel iron to make blocks to hold them in the required position long term.

I look forward to seeing pictures of your project.

 

[fordgpw]

Well I have done some more research on this and discovered that the 350C has a 23 GPM hydraulic pump.
In regards to using a rock-shaft vs 2 cylinders for lift and tilt:
1 is it possible to use an additional selector valve that would allow both cylinders to work in sync or independently of each other?
2 is there an a hybrid control valve system with this option built in available that can do this?

Farmerford- I take my backhoe on and off the hard way - there is no room for the slide hammer system as you describe because of the attached ROPS. I let the hoe down all the way to the ground before I disconnect the hydraulics, and use the stabilizers more than bucket to align for in insertion/removal. Wear at the boom of the saddles makes alignment more difficult than necessary, thinking of welding it up a little to help.

thanks again all for the advice, Scott

 

[Farmerford]

Scott:

Some of the more knowledgeable members may know how to easily have the lift cylinders synchronized when you want and independent at other times, but I do not.

I have seen cylinders synchronized three ways.

1. A mechanical flow divider that divides the flow equally between two cylinders using two gear type hydraulic motors connected at the shaft. These are expensive: $500 or so. And due to unequal leakage between the two sides the cylinders slowly (but inevitably) get out of synch. And you have one to be able to take the flow divider out of the circuit when you want only cylinder to move, which means more directional control valves or selector valves, etc.

2. An orifice flow divider that divides the flow equally between two cylinders. Cheaper than the mechanical model at $200 or less, but it does not divide the flow as precisely, particularly if one cylinder has a larger load than the other. And you have the same problem with getting it out of the circuit when you want to move one cylinder separately.

3. Series connected cylinders: The base port of cylinder one receives pressure from the pump. The rod port of cylinder one is connected to the base port of cylinder two. The rod port of cylinder two is connected to tank. And vice versa to move in the other direction. The key here is to use different size cylinders so that the fluid displaced per inch of movement for the rod side of cylinder one is the same as the fluid displaced per inch of movement for the base side of cylinder two. I have seen cylinders advertised for this purpose, but my calculations showed that the fluid displaced by the two cylinders (rod end of cyl 1 and base end of cyl 2) is not exactly the same when standard size components are used. To work perfectly the cylinders would have to be custom made. And you have the common problem of disconnecting the series arrangement when you want to move the cylinders separately.

4. Valve?? I don't know of a valve that does what you want, but several posters have much more knowledge than I and may be able to point you in the right direction.

 

[Frankdozer]

Hello Fordgpw........I know you have a John Deere 350. I just a month ago purchased a 1984 John Deere 455D with a 4 in 1 bucket. It has the backhoe mount on the rear and the 1" hydraulic lines in the rear between the mount connected together. I just don't have the backhoe. I too want to make a 3 point hitch setup on the rear to use a landscape rake and a box blade etc..........Did you make such a setup on your dozer. Thanks, Frank. Also, does anyone else on the website have a John Deere 455D?.........