Thinking of a top and tilt setup

[J_J]

jim_wilson, You said:

I would like to just use the backhoe feed and return lines to feed the top and tilt setup. But the factory warnings seem to indicate that if I use them to feed another valve - and I use the 3pt at the same time (which I would be doing with the top and tilt) - I would get valve damage.

Is there a way to set this up to avoid the damage that Kubota is warning about?

What has Kubota done with their backhoe valve setup that makes it susceptible to damage - if the 3pt lever is moved and the backhoe is attached?


Jim,

The BH feed line is the source of fluid for the BH, or the remote valve.

You are probably using the feed line from the hyd block to feed a QD for the BH. If not using the BH, a jumper hose would connect the PB QD to the 3pt or the remotes.

The 3pt is not in the circuit unless you have gone to the effort to insert the BH valve in series with all valves.

To install or use your remotes, the BH QD would feed the IN port of the remote valve, and the PB from that valve would feed the 3pt, and the OUT port would go to tank.

Once you have the remotes installed, then the PB from the remotes become the FEED line for the BH, and the 3pt is out of the circuit.

If you want to use the BH and not use the remotes, then disconnect the remote input QD and use that QD for the BH.

The only problem I can see is if the BH valve does not have a high pressure port for the fluid going to the 3pt if you onnected all valves in series.

Most OUT ports are limited to about 500 psi, so if all valves are in series, and then by operating the 3pt, it may cause the 2500 psi to back up through all the valves, and perhaps cause damage the BH valve.

So to alleviate any problem, just bypass the remotes and 3pt when using the BH. The BH OUT port can go directly to tank

When using the BH, there is no need for the remotes or 3pt.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Jim,

Something I may have missed in my rational; Is your BH control vale assembly permanently installed on the BH unit or on the tractor? My BX; when you unhook the BH, the valve assembly goes with it. I was assuming your 3200 was configured similar to my BX. Sorry I may have mislead you. All the more reason to have the Workshop Manual. If you have it; scan and post the HYD diagram and the experts here like JJ can trace it out for you, if you need help deciphering it.

With my setup I would have a new valve assembly that is only connected and used when the BH is unhooked. That way the 3PT and FEL is still downstream of the new valve.

Ron

 

[jim_wilson]

Jim,

Something I may have missed in my rational; Is your BH control vale assembly permanently installed on the BH unit or on the tractor? My BX; when you unhook the BH, the valve assembly goes with it. I was assuming your 3200 was configured similar to my BX. Sorry I may have mislead you. All the more reason to have the Workshop Manual. If you have it; scan and post the HYD diagram and the experts here like JJ can trace it out for you, if you need help deciphering it.

With my setup I would have a new valve assembly that is only connected and used when the BH is unhooked. That way the 3PT and FEL is still downstream of the new valve.

Ron

Yes - my tractor is setup differently. The valve for the loader is located under the seat - and stays "attached" to the tractor when the loader is removed. The joystick is right next to the seat - the valve itself is under the seat - and the lines feeding the loader go under the operator platform to a bracket where they end in quick-connects to attach to the hoses from the loader.

 

[jim_wilson]

jim_wilson, You said:

I would like to just use the backhoe feed and return lines to feed the top and tilt setup. But the factory warnings seem to indicate that if I use them to feed another valve - and I use the 3pt at the same time (which I would be doing with the top and tilt) - I would get valve damage.

Is there a way to set this up to avoid the damage that Kubota is warning about?

What has Kubota done with their backhoe valve setup that makes it susceptible to damage - if the 3pt lever is moved and the backhoe is attached?


Jim,

The BH feed line is the source of fluid for the BH, or the remote valve.

You are probably using the feed line from the hyd block to feed a QD for the BH. If not using the BH, a jumper hose would connect the PB QD to the 3pt or the remotes.

The 3pt is not in the circuit unless you have gone to the effort to insert the BH valve in series with all valves.

To install or use your remotes, the BH QD would feed the IN port of the remote valve, and the PB from that valve would feed the 3pt, and the OUT port would go to tank.

Once you have the remotes installed, then the PB from the remotes become the FEED line for the BH, and the 3pt is out of the circuit.

If you want to use the BH and not use the remotes, then disconnect the remote input QD and use that QD for the BH.

The only problem I can see is if the BH valve does not have a high pressure port for the fluid going to the 3pt if you onnected all valves in series.

Most OUT ports are limited to about 500 psi, so if all valves are in series, and then by operating the 3pt, it may cause the 2500 psi to back up through all the valves, and perhaps cause damage the BH valve.

So to alleviate any problem, just bypass the remotes and 3pt when using the BH. The BH OUT port can go directly to tank

When using the BH, there is no need for the remotes or 3pt.

Aahhh - Ok, I think this is making sense now. I had to read it a couple of times for it to sink in though.

I believe the current setup is as so:

There is a distribution block under the seat area on the tractor. The feed from the hydraulic pump feeds that block - which then in turn feeds the loader valve - and the pipe with the quick connect on it that feeds the backhoe.

Then - there is another quick connect at the back of the tractor - that goes to a pipe that feeds directly into the side of the 3pt block(valve?). When the backhoe is disconnected - the two QD's that normally connect to the backhoe - are just jumped together so the fluid flows directly to the 3pt block. When the backhoe is connected - trying to operate the 3pt must cause some sort of backpressure in this system which can damage the valves in the backhoe - which although they may have pressure relief - have nowhere else to dump to - except for that feed into the 3pt.

So what I need to do is find a way to feed the out port back to the tank. There are some unused ports on that distribution block I mentioned - I'll have to take a closer look at that to see which ones might dump back to the tank. Once I figure that out - I can run a hose or pipe out - put a QD on it - and make it the return or out line.

Then I'd be able to hook up a joystick - or some spool valves - to the QD's on the three lines - make sure the power beyond feeds the 3pt - and the Out port goes back to the tank - and it should work - and this will avoid any damage issues because the pressure relief will dump to the "out" port.

Do I have this correct?

 

[IvanS]

Jim,
I've been looking into this too for my B3300SU and I'm still a bit confused about the three point needing locked in the down position when the backhoe is installed. If you look at the this diagram http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...00su-pb-bh-rear-remotes-hydraulic-diagram.jpg it looks like the 3pt valve passes fluid to the tank in both the neutral and down positions of the valve, only in the up position does it not provide a path to the tank. I suspect you are right about the tank port being one of the plugged ports on the loader valve, I think a return/tank line from a rear remote valve body could be tied into that valve body if we know which one to use.

I think the biggest obstacle is where to put the rear remotes - there is really no room when the backhoe is mounted to hide a remote valve setup anywhere. I don't what to mount it on the fender or ROPS if I can avoid it, I don't like the looks of it and I think it's just waiting to get caught by a tree branch or such and rip the hoses off.

 

[aczlan]

Aahhh - Ok, I think this is making sense now. I had to read it a couple of times for it to sink in though.

I believe the current setup is as so:

There is a distribution block under the seat area on the tractor. The feed from the hydraulic pump feeds that block - which then in turn feeds the loader valve - and the pipe with the quick connect on it that feeds the backhoe.

Then - there is another quick connect at the back of the tractor - that goes to a pipe that feeds directly into the side of the 3pt block(valve?). When the backhoe is disconnected - the two QD's that normally connect to the backhoe - are just jumped together so the fluid flows directly to the 3pt block. When the backhoe is connected - trying to operate the 3pt must cause some sort of backpressure in this system which can damage the valves in the backhoe - which although they may have pressure relief - have nowhere else to dump to - except for that feed into the 3pt.

So what I need to do is find a way to feed the out port back to the tank. There are some unused ports on that distribution block I mentioned - I'll have to take a closer look at that to see which ones might dump back to the tank. Once I figure that out - I can run a hose or pipe out - put a QD on it - and make it the return or out line.

Then I'd be able to hook up a joystick - or some spool valves - to the QD's on the three lines - make sure the power beyond feeds the 3pt - and the Out port goes back to the tank - and it should work - and this will avoid any damage issues because the pressure relief will dump to the "out" port.

Do I have this correct?

Sounds like it you have it.
What I would do (assuming that the backhoe is connected with a flexible line) is to take the line that currently feeds the backhoe "In" and run that to the "In" on your remote block, the run the "Out" from your remote block to the "In" on the backhoe. I would take the "Tank" port on your remote block and feed it directly into the tank (through the filler port?).
Then your new remote block is upstream of the backhoe and cannot hurt the backhoe block.

Aaron Z

 

[jim_wilson]

Jim,
I've been looking into this too for my B3300SU and I'm still a bit confused about the three point needing locked in the down position when the backhoe is installed. If you look at the this diagram http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...00su-pb-bh-rear-remotes-hydraulic-diagram.jpg it looks like the 3pt valve passes fluid to the tank in both the neutral and down positions of the valve, only in the up position does it not provide a path to the tank. I suspect you are right about the tank port being one of the plugged ports on the loader valve, I think a return/tank line from a rear remote valve body could be tied into that valve body if we know which one to use.

I think the biggest obstacle is where to put the rear remotes - there is really no room when the backhoe is mounted to hide a remote valve setup anywhere. I don't what to mount it on the fender or ROPS if I can avoid it, I don't like the looks of it and I think it's just waiting to get caught by a tree branch or such and rip the hoses off.

My thoughts were that what I wanted to do - was to first figure out the actual hydraulic plumbing - and where to mount the lines and QD's. I've got to look the tractor over a little more when I get home tonite. It's going to be tough to find a place to put another line with a QD end on the back of the tractor - the current factory Kubota setup with the two backhoe connections is already sort of cobbled together IMHO.

Yeah - I don't like the idea of just hanging stuff off the back of the tractor like I've seen in some installs - I'll rip a hose off on a tree branch or trip myself off the tractor getting my foot caught on a house while I climb around the backhoe or something like that. I'd like to have a nice clean install for the all three of the quick connections.

As far as for controls - what I was thinking of doing - was setting this up somehow - so that I could use a joystick in cases where I wanted one - or use a regular valve in cases where I wanted that. That's why I was wanted the quick connections - so that I could swap out controls depending on what implement or use I had at the rear end of the tractor. As an example - I think there's enough room along the side of the seat to get a joystick controller in there without it being in the way - something like this:

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-7401&catname=hydraulic

My idea is to have it setup with the hoses or lines arranged in such a way that they're nice and clean. That might involve some custom bended hard lines to make it work - that's something I need to look into some more. I spend some time researching making hydraulic lines last year - as well as the feasibility of bending hard lines - and it doesn't look all that hard - it's more a matter of getting the right tooling (benders, etc).

 

[medic0648]

If you only have 2 qd on the back it's just a pb with a high pressure return to the 3ph. You'll need to find/create a low pressure return to tank for the out flow from the valves.

 

[jim_wilson]

If you only have 2 qd on the back it's just a pb with a high pressure return to the 3ph. You'll need to find/create a low pressure return to tank for the out flow from the valves.

That's the missing piece I did not know , JJ's post #11 set me on the right track to figuring that out.

I've been going back and forth tonite reading the manual and cross referencing by running out to the barn to look at the actual tractor, and I think this has helped me to get this all (mostly) figured out - I hope.

After going back and forth and finally crawling under the tractor to take a look - I did find a port where I might be able to cut in for the tank return. The manual showed a "tank" port on the loader valve block - but I had to crawl under the tractor and really look before I could see it.

There is a what defintely appears to be a lower pressure hose (it's painted over but I can see the weave coming thru the paint) - which is attached to the loader valve block with a hose clamp - and it appears to go into the side of transmission case - which is where I assume the resevoir is.

Which leads me to another question - can I just splice into this line - or add a block or something (to accept more "tank" or "out" lines) - so all of my "outs" will feed back into this port? Do I have to worry about backpressure at all or is this low enough pressure that there should be no concern there.

I'd like to add some more hydraulics to the front of the tractor also - and my I want them to be active at the same time the loader is active - so I was going to do something like use a Fasse valve on the backhoe line - to feed hydraulics forward for the additional valves there. Those valves will also need a return "tank" line. If I plumb all of this into a block or something - which then in turn feeds the tank - will I have any issues with backpressure affecting anything dumping into that common return block?

 

[medic0648]

An easier way to get the 3rd function on the loader is a diverter valve on 1 of the control line sets. Much cheaper also. Also wouldn't mess with the BH at all.