Thinking of a top and tilt setup

[jim_wilson]

I have some grading I'm going to have to do on my property - and while contemplating which box blade to get, I also started thinking I might want to put a top and tilt setup on the tractor too (Kubota B3200).

I have the tractor setup for a backhoe - so there are hydraulic ports at the back I could use to feed the top and tilt setup.

I've seen a number of different configurations for hydraulics on the 3pt, top cylinder only - cylinder on just one of the 3pt arms , cylinders on both of the 3pt arms, etc.

What I would like to be able to do - is get a loader joystick - and use that to control the top and tilt - one axis for the top link cylinder - and one axis for the arm link(s) cylinders.

Is there any reason why this won't work?

Is there a reason to have cylinders on both of the 3pt arms and not just one? I'm thinking the joystick setup would work ok for the following configurations:

1) Top link cylinder and just one arm link cylinder

- or -

2) Cylinders on both of the arms - controlled by the joystick - and then a separate control for the top link.

Another concern: The tractor has a warning that the 3pt should not be operated if the backhoe is connected - "because it might damage the backhoe controls" - am I correct in assuming this is just because the backhoe valves must not have a pressure relief - and I would not have a problem running the hydraulics for the top and tilt from the backhoe feed - as long as the valves I used to control the top and tilt had a pressure relief ? (so I could use the 3pt while using the top n tilt fed from the backhoe ports)??

 

[J_J]

The valve that feeds the BH will have a pressure relief.

The BH valve itself probably has a relief.

There is no need to use the 3pt while using the BH. You are probably using the hyd for the 3pt to feed the BH.

One cyl for the Tip, and one cyl for the Tilt. The tilt cyl will move the lift arm above and below horizontal.

Check with

Brian
Top and Tilt Kits by Fit Rite Hydraulics

http://fitritehydraulics.com/

The joystick valve will probably have float and that will be useful.

 

[GaryM]

I've had a hydraulic top cylinder for a few years and really find it useful. Just ordered a tilt cylinder from Fit Rite two weeks ago and am looking forward to its arrival.

I have a Deere 4100 and had the dealer add two valves a QD that are supplied by the power beyond port. That's been working well and the second valve will be used for the tilt. Two tilt cylinders would seem to allow a greater range of adjustment, if nothing binds. I think one will be adequate, at least for me.

 

[jim_wilson]

The valve that feeds the BH will have a pressure relief.

The BH valve itself probably has a relief.

There is no need to use the 3pt while using the BH. You are probably using the hyd for the 3pt to feed the BH.

One cyl for the Tip, and one cyl for the Tilt. The tilt cyl will move the lift arm above and below horizontal.

Check with

Brian
Top and Tilt Kits by Fit Rite Hydraulics

Fit Rite Hydraulics - fitritehydraulics.com

The joystick valve will probably have float and that will be useful.

I guess what I was concerned about was the premise behind the warning - that trying to use the 3pt controls while the backhoe was attached - would lead to damage on the backhoe valves - without looking into it more - that would lead me to believe that the backhoe valve block has no pressure relief.

It also makes me wonder how - if I use the hydraulic pressure port(s) that normally feed the backhoe - to feed the top and tilt setup - will the 3pt work correctly?

I do know that the loader and the backhoe circuits are independent of each other - I can operate the FEL and the backhoe at the same time. The thing I don't know is "how" separate the backhoe and 3pt circuits are. When the backhoe is removed the circuit that normally feeds it is looped back (hose with male is plugged back into the female of the pair of connections) which I assume is because it needs to be that way in order for the 3pt to work properly

I've already contacted FitRite about one of their setups. I'll ask about the valve also.

My idea behind using the joystick setup was that (like you pointed out) - it would have float - but also it would allow for easy intuitive adjustments on the top-n-tilt setup. One axis for the toplink cylinder - one axis for the other cylinder.

 

[J_J]

Most BH valve will have a relief.

I was trying to point out that use of the 3pt arms might damage something. You would probably never use the 3pt when the BH is installed.

You may even be bypassing the 3pt system.

If the FEL is using all the pump fluid, there should be none left for the BH. If you use part lever for the FEL, then there is fluid for the BH.

All valves should be in series, and the up stream valves have priority.

 

[DutchHenryBrown]

I will second the get ahold of Brian at Fit Rite Hyd. and see what he would suggest. I have his set up on my tractor and it works very well. Brian has a wealth of information about this set up.:2cents::thumbsup:

 

[Tractor Seabee]

I am looking into the same thing for my BX 25. First step-Get the BX Shop Manual before you even think about it. That is the only way you can really understand how your hydraulics work. The BX 25 only has one main relief valve. The BH works through the PB, that is why both it and the FEL work at the same time. I do not understand why you are worried about the 3PT W/BH on. You can do nothing else with it. I park it in the up position,and close the valve below the seat, and leave it alone when BH is on. If the arms come down they can get in the way of the BH. You will need a valve set made for PB and then connect all three hoses (P-PB-T) same as the BH. Everything then works. W/O the PB connected the 3PT and FEL won't work. Get the manual and trace out the circuit. While you are at it put some more shims in the RV and increase your pressure. Get the gauge from SC, a steel tee and M/F connectors at your local supplier. Install the gauge in the branch side of the tee. Put the tee with gauge in the PB line to monitor pressure as you raise it. I went to 2000 PSI and it sure made a difference.

Ron

 

[jim_wilson]

I am looking into the same thing for my BX 25. First step-Get the BX Shop Manual before you even think about it. That is the only way you can really understand how your hydraulics work. The BX 25 only has one main relief valve. The BH works through the PB, that is why both it and the FEL work at the same time. I do not understand why you are worried about the 3PT W/BH on. You can do nothing else with it. I park it in the up position,and close the valve below the seat, and leave it alone when BH is on. If the arms come down they can get in the way of the BH. You will need a valve set made for PB and then connect all three hoses (P-PB-T) same as the BH. Everything then works. W/O the PB connected the 3PT and FEL won't work. Get the manual and trace out the circuit. While you are at it put some more shims in the RV and increase your pressure. Get the gauge from SC, a steel tee and M/F connectors at your local supplier. Install the gauge in the branch side of the tee. Put the tee with gauge in the PB line to monitor pressure as you raise it. I went to 2000 PSI and it sure made a difference.

Ron

Please go read what I wrote again. I'm not going to use the 3pt at the same time I'm using the backhoe - I'm wondering what I have to do to safely use the backhoe feed ports to feed the top and tilt.

Here's the source of my concern - the Kubota manual for the BH77 backhoe has the following warning(s) in it:

It is necessary to have the backhoe detached when using the rear remote, the 3pt hitch or any other valves that are downstream of the backhoe valve. Failure to do this may cause the unit to exceed the allowable back pressure resulting in breakage of the seal or case of the backhoe valve.

Backhoe must be removed when using any rear remote valve, 3 point hitch, or any hydraulic component that is downstream of the backhoe valve. Failure to follow this instruction will result in valve damage.

When backhoe is attached, make sure to properly secure the hydraulic control lever (3pt lever) in the "DOWN" locked position, Accidental operation of the hydraulic control lever can result in valve damage.

Those warnings are where my concern is coming from.

I would like to just use the backhoe feed and return lines to feed the top and tilt setup. But the factory warnings seem to indicate that if I use them to feed another valve - and I use the 3pt at the same time (which I would be doing with the top and tilt) - I would get valve damage.

Is there a way to set this up to avoid the damage that Kubota is warning about?

What has Kubota done with their backhoe valve setup that makes it susceptible to damage - if the 3pt lever is moved and the backhoe is attached?

 

[jim_wilson]

Most BH valve will have a relief.

I was trying to point out that use of the 3pt arms might damage something. You would probably never use the 3pt when the BH is installed.

You may even be bypassing the 3pt system.

If the FEL is using all the pump fluid, there should be none left for the BH. If you use part lever for the FEL, then there is fluid for the BH.

All valves should be in series, and the up stream valves have priority.

I'll see if I can get a scan of the schematic in the Kubota manual that illustrates the B3200 hydraulic setup.

Maybe that will make it clearer.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

I do not have any of that language in my BX25 Operators manual or workshop manual so here is my rational: It is necessary to have the backhoe detached when using the rear remote, the 3pt hitch or any other valves that are downstream of the backhoe valve. The other valves are downstream only when the BH is connected via the PB line. The backhoe will be disconnected and all the valves out of the system if doing any of this. Failure to do this may cause the unit to exceed the allowable back pressure resulting in breakage of the seal or case of the backhoe valve. Yes there is a relief valve in the BH valve system but it has no effect on downstream pressures via the PB.
Backhoe must be removed when using any rear remote valve, 3 point hitch, or any hydraulic component that is downstream of the backhoe valve. Failure to follow this instruction will result in valve damage.
When backhoe is attached, make sure to properly secure the hydraulic control lever (3pt lever) in the "DOWN" locked position, Accidental operation of the hydraulic control lever can result in valve damage. That is why I close off the valve that controls the 3PT speed.

Rational: Once the BH is disconnected all the BH valves go with it so are not in the circuit. You are now with P-PB-T lines with the P and PB connected together to complete the power circuit and the tank line blocked off. You are adding a new valve array to that 3 line hook up same as it you were using the BH valve array. The top and tilt cylinders are the same function as the FEL and it does not have a relief valve as no excess can be developed by the operation like a BH can develop.

Remember Kubota has to have language in their manuals to protect their liability when people do stupid things. These statements lose relevancy when knowledgeable people do mechanically sound modifications. Kubota does not even offer rear remote systems for the BX, they are all after market modifications. In fact the dealer I bought my BX from stated they would not do any modifications that were not supported by Kubota parts and manuals and their reason was liability. I think you are safe and sound to proceed.

Ron