Vickers CM11-N02R20D-21 control valve

[ETD66SS]

ETD,
On the CM11 end plate section was there an internal plug under the the port that connects to the steering valve? I have studied the CM data sheet and believe you have an "E" end plate which has the option for power beyond. Unfortunately I could not find a good schematic of the "R" inlet and "E" outlet in the data sheet. I believe but can't prove, that having the steering blocked should not cause the tilt function to shift one direction and stop. Only possible answer I can arrive at is if this was plumbed in series with no line direct to tank. Then if the steering in blocked I would expect the tilt cylinder to fully extend and not retract due to the differential area and pressure being basically equal on both ends of the cylinder.

I believe you will have to trace some lines to see where they go to confirm it is plumbed according to the diagrams in your manual.

Best of luck and let us know what you find or if you have any further questions.

Yes, as a matter of fact I just put that plug back in (Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet).

Thanks for all your help. I will definitely have the plumbing diagram with me when I put it all back together.

The only other thing I can add to the conversation is, when I bought this Pettibone, the guy had 2 of them. Both machines had 2X4's jammed between the axle and the frame by both the tilt cylinders. I asked him why they were there, he said "all these old Pettibone's lose the tilt functionality when they get old"... I don't know if he was BS'ing me or not.

Also, on this Char-Lynn orbital, there is no thrust needle bearing, so it seems like a very old design. I was able to measure up all the seals and get them from McMaster-Carr.

 

[oldnslo]

ETD,
On post #15 you showed the plumbing diagrams. On page 110 & 111 it shows the steering unit and a steering control valve. Does this machine have the option for either two wheel steer or four wheel steer? Just curious what that valve is.

In looking at the tilt or sway function plumbing diagram it shows both cylinders extend to tilt one direction and both retract to tilt the other direction. Is this correct? When the system fails do both cylinders go to full extend?

 

[ETD66SS]

ETD,
On post #15 you showed the plumbing diagrams. On page 110 & 111 it shows the steering unit and a steering control valve. Does this machine have the option for either two wheel steer or four wheel steer? Just curious what that valve is.

In looking at the tilt or sway function plumbing diagram it shows both cylinders extend to tilt one direction and both retract to tilt the other direction. Is this correct? When the system fails do both cylinders go to full extend?

It has 3 steering options, front steer, 4 wheel steer and crab walk.

As far as the diagram on page 115, yeah, that doesn't make sense. The way the cylinders are mounted, one would extend, and the other would retract in order to tilt...

Here's some pics of the cylinders:

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

This is the direction the tilt is stuck in:

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

I started with the control valve, because when the machine is running and I move the lever for the tilt in either direction, it bogs the engine down but not tilting. just stays where it is.

One of the first things I did when I got the machine was swap hoses on one of the cylinders and tried to tilt, still didn't go anywhere, just bogged the engine down.

 

[oldnslo]

Does the engine bog down when the sway valve is in neutral? If yes then I would suspect some restriction in the tank line & or the line going to the steering circuit. Vickers didn't do a very good job of showing accurate schematics on the CM11 valve but since this is a fixed displacement pump restriction in either line would load the pump up.

Does your CM11 valve have an adjustable relief or was it fixed? Model code would indicate fixed only but not sure.

Also if the lines would reach I believe you could use the undamaged spool for sway. Again from the model code I believe the spools are the same.

Do you see any other valves in the lines from CM11 sway valve to the sway cylinders? Just curious to see if possibly someone added load holding valves and one of them is plumbed wrong or stuck. 45 years of service who knows what has been changed...

 

[ETD66SS]

Does the engine bog down when the sway valve is in neutral? If yes then I would suspect some restriction in the tank line & or the line going to the steering circuit. Vickers didn't do a very good job of showing accurate schematics on the CM11 valve but since this is a fixed displacement pump restriction in either line would load the pump up.

Does your CM11 valve have an adjustable relief or was it fixed? Model code would indicate fixed only but not sure.

Also if the lines would reach I believe you could use the undamaged spool for sway. Again from the model code I believe the spools are the same.

Do you see any other valves in the lines from CM11 sway valve to the sway cylinders? Just curious to see if possibly someone added load holding valves and one of them is plumbed wrong or stuck. 45 years of service who knows what has been changed...

Here are some pictures of the relief valve:

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

It looks like it's adjusted by putting shims in and tightening the bolt, I didn't take it apart. You can see in the one picture is has a "20" hand engraved into the top of the bolt head. I assume this is for an R20, 2000 psi setting.

It looks to me like the Pettibone I have started off as a crane that had a hoist, then later someone changed it to a forklift. You can see the first few pages of my manual here: 7188CEL73.pdf - Google Drive

It's very evident on the machine someone added the center hose reel seen in this pic: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet , when I look at it, the weld looks like a field weld and the paint color is different, so someone did something with that hose reel.

And this pic shows the cable drum hydraulic motor, which is ofc not being used at the moment: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

But, looking at my manual, the machine came with the hoist and the sway cylinders, which in that pdf I linked they call them tilt cylinders... However, the last page of the pdf calls out 42" forks. So I am very confused on how the machine was delivered from the factory. Maybe it came with both the forks and the hoist and the owner swapped them out when needed... What I do know is, it looks like the machine never came with the outriggers, and that vale spool confirms it, as it was never used.

Here are some diagrams of the machine with hoist vs with the forks:

http://imgur.com/mwzymEe
http://imgur.com/Qo8wBAZ

I don't see any other valves in between the CM11 and the sway cylinders.

EDIT:

SO is it sacrilege to swap spools? I can get the unused spool in the valve body, it's tighter, but it fits. Will things go wrong when everything heats up? I guess I'm not seeing why it wouldn't work. I understand if they were 2 valves that were being used, but the one vale will not be used...

 

[oldnslo]

Was this machine frame a base for different options?
Like one option could have been a telescoping crane with winch and stabilizers.
Another option telescoping all terrain fork lift.

Possible they came with detachable end on the mast for either forks or hoist winch.

Swapping spools: Is the body also worn or just the spool? If the body is OK you can swap spools might change the leakage rate but the worn spool would leak anyway. I didn't know if the lines would allow you to connect them to the unused section Vs swapping spools.

As a last resort kind of test can you just loop the cylinder ports of the tilt cylinders together to see what happens? If the engine doesn't bog down and the steering gets quiet then you have determined that the problem is in the tilt circuit.

 

[ETD66SS]

Was this machine frame a base for different options?
Like one option could have been a telescoping crane with winch and stabilizers.
Another option telescoping all terrain fork lift.

Possible they came with detachable end on the mast for either forks or hoist winch.

Swapping spools: Is the body also worn or just the spool? If the body is OK you can swap spools might change the leakage rate but the worn spool would leak anyway. I didn't know if the lines would allow you to connect them to the unused section Vs swapping spools.

As a last resort kind of test can you just loop the cylinder ports of the tilt cylinders together to see what happens? If the engine doesn't bog down and the steering gets quiet then you have determined that the problem is in the tilt circuit.

I believe to swap from the forks to the hoist, you remove the two pins shown here: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

There are quick couplers to detach that tilt cylinder on the forks. Then I guess you'd just hook up the hoist with the same two pins and feed the cable to it.

You can see in these pics, it looks like the center hose reel was scabbed on by somebody at some point:

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

This morning, the issue I am having is with the Char-Lynn housing. I can hear the check valve ball rattling around inside the housing. I assume it is supposed to be loose and the HYD pressure is what seats it into place? I don't want to try to remove it to look at it because it means drilling out this cap (Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet), I don't have one to replace it with, nor do I want it to leak if I don't press one in properly.

I could try eliminating the sway cylinders by just looping the hoses, but I am still confused by the plumbing diagram. The way it is shown, the cylinders would fight each other and the machine would not sway...

 

[oldnslo]

I can tell you from experience that mistakes are made on schematics, plumbing diagrams, etc. Agree to work you would need the rod end of one cylinder connected to the blind end of the other.

Not sure about the check balls on the SCU but suspect you are correct in that they will seat when there is flow.

 

[ETD66SS]

I can tell you from experience that mistakes are made on schematics, plumbing diagrams, etc. Agree to work you would need the rod end of one cylinder connected to the blind end of the other.

Not sure about the check balls on the SCU but suspect you are correct in that they will seat when there is flow.

Well ****, I ruined two of the parts for the SCU. I've been using phosphoric acid to clean all the parts, soaking them over night. Two of the SCU parts are cast iron and not cast steel like the rest of the parts I have been dealing with. The acid ate into them and turned them black, I probably lost .002-.003" on each part on all surfaces. It's possible I can have them re-machined/ground at work to get them fixed. I can certainly have new parts made, but hate to ask the guys at work to do that much for free. grrr

I worked on the machine some more today. The plumbing for the sway cylinders is not plumbed like the manual, it's plumbed the way we were thinking. I guess the manual is just goofed up...

 

[oldnslo]

Has the sway or tilt ever worked on this machine? Does it even try to move?