Perplexing Hydraulic Problem

   / Perplexing Hydraulic Problem #11  
Todd, just to continue on what Mark said....
Most often with our hydraulic systems, when we operate the curl on the FEL, we can't raise or lower the bucket at the same time because the control valves route fluid to the working cylinder. I bet you find that either the relief valve as Mark mentioned, or one of these "shuttle" control valve spools is stuck in the wrong position allowing most of your fluid to return to the reservoir. It really does sound like a relief valve stuck open because your tractor's engine is not loading except when you power the FEL. Your FEL control valve is probably routing fluid to the FEL before it gets to the 3PH relief valve. It could be a broken internal seal, but my money is on the stuck relief valve.
 
   / Perplexing Hydraulic Problem #12  
Todd,
I agree with your mechanics and also Mark. And I know that you said that your have checked your quick disconnects several times. Bear with me. I have had the quick disconnect problem before, Once when hooking up my backhoe and one other time. The other time was when I had snaged a quick disconnect that wasn’t one of the ones that goes to the backhoe. The last time, my tractor acted just like yours does now. I only found it by accident that time. I know that this may sound stupid but I would check all the disconnects again.

1. Tractor to loader valve
2. OUT on loader valve to the SUMP
3. BYPASS on loader valve to backhoe INLET
4. Backhoe OUTLET to RETURN on tractor (three point)

If an o-ring were blowed it would probably leak if it was on a quick disconnect but if it were internal you would not be able to see it.

Yes, you probably have a relief valve on your backhoe but you have eliminated it by unhooking the backhoe. Most backhoes this size have one.

I guess that you have tried all this before. But sometimes I have to recheck myself several times.
 
   / Perplexing Hydraulic Problem
  • Thread Starter
#13  
OK Guy's, now we're getting specific so let me try to answer all suggestions so far and perhaps we can get closer to a net diagnosis. By the way, I truly appreciate all the input and suggestions.

MarkV suggest a stuck open relief valve. I don't know if the 1920 has a seperate relief valve for the FEL and the 3Pt. but it sounds entirely possible.

MChalkley furthers this argument and here's what I can offer in response. I have disconnected all the hoses and started her up and there is flow coming out of the hoses. I checked out from the FEL/Power Beyond hose-Flow. I checked out from the Backhoe going back into the Rear End next to the 3 Pt.-Flow. I didn't compare these flows to say the flow of one of the FEL hoses because they are smaller and I didn't think they'd necessarily match flow rates. Nonetheless, flow through the backhoe system seemed to be pretty good.

So: FEL works = Hyd. Pump works OK.
One Releif Valve or Two? Don't know-Where do I look?
(Possible bad rear relief valve- As I do have flow)
You lost me on the spool MChalkley but it sounds like that's been eliminated.

Jinman furthers with a relief valve OR a Shuttle Control Valve Spool being stuck. I'm already looking for the rear relief valve but is the Shuttle Control Valve what I am calling the manifold that has primary hyd. in with FEL and Power Beyond out? If so, with flow determined affirmative through the power beyond all the way to backhoe exit back to Rear End, I think we are all saying it's a stuck relief valve - Am I ASSuming too much here?

Sounds like I need to invest $75 in the shop manual but where exactly would I look for that relief valve? Is it internal near the 3 Pt. requiring seat removal etc. to get to the cover above for removal and inspection?

You guy's are most helpful and it's much appreciated.

Todd in Placerville
 
   / Perplexing Hydraulic Problem #14  
Todd, I am attaching a copy of my TC35/40/45 hydraulic system because surely it is a similar New Holland design.
You are getting so many ideas that I am afraid you are being sent on a "wild goose chase" and wasting time instead of isolating your problem. I know your 1920 is different from my TC45, but I bet it is not that different, so I am attaching a scan of the hydraulic system from my repair manual so we have some definite commonality in nomenclature in our discussion of your problems. The illustration is 720 x 950, so you might want to print it out so you can look at it while you read the rest of my post (very long and windy)./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

I have my opinion, and I'm sure others will have good suggestions too, so here goes:

The pump (item 4) draws fluid from the reservoir (item 1) and supplies pressure to the system diverter and relief valve. If you did not have a FEL, this valve would be rotated open so the fluid would go directly to your 3PH and Backhoe, but note that ALL fluid is diverted through the FEL control valve before going to the 3PH system. If the relief valve in this diverter was stuck open, your FEL would not work, so I am going to suggest you eliminate that as a possible problem.

Continuing on to the remote valve (item 8), there could be a problem here, but this is where your tractor is going to be different because of your backhoe, but notice that in my diagram, ALL fluid flows thru this valve and the endcap (item 10) before it gets to the 3PH HPL valve (item 11). If there is a leak in any of these items, you could be losing pressure here. Following the pressure source to the 3PH HPL valve (item 11), notice that it has internal pressure relief and dump valves (unloading valves) that return to the reservoir (arrows to the right). Pressure is then supplied to the flow valve (item 12) which also has a check/relief valve at the top of the diagram. I don't think the flow valve is your problem either. Here is my thought process...

1. Your pump is working, but fluid is not leaking out of the tractor, so it must be getting back to the reservoir through a normal path or an internal leak.

2. If it is getting back to the reservoir thru a normal path,
my diagram shows one of four ways it can go.
a. from the system relief diverter valve (item 5)
b. from a remote control valve (item 8, your backhoe
is probably attached in a similar position)
c. from the system hydraulic lift HPL (control) valve
(item 11, the control valve for your hydraulic lift)
d. from a relief valve in your flow control valve (item 12)

3. If it was anything after the backhoe, your backhoe would work because of the design of the system. Because the leak is in the connection to the backhoe, nothing in the system after the backhoe works (i.e. the 3PH). Because you can get minimum pressure to the the 3PH and backhoe if you rev the rpm's up to 2500, this just means that you have a leak that is not dropping 100% of the pressure. When you open the lines and see flow, I bet you could almost stop it by putting your thumb over the hole (although I recommend using something beside your thumb to test this theory). If you could loop the supply to your backhoe to the return (effectively eliminate the external backhoe) you could then prove the leak is internal to the tractor. I'd look at removing all external endcaps and backhoe interface and look for a stuck relief valve or blown seals in these assemblies before removing your entire 3PH assembly.

Good luck. I hope this is help instead of leading you down the wrong path./w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
 

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   / Perplexing Hydraulic Problem #15  
Todd - When you say you have flow through the hoses in the back, was it a lot or a trickle? It does sound like your tractor has two relief valves. If so, the one for the rear system is frequently located near or with the valve that controls the speed of lowering rate for the three point hitch. If your tractor does indeed have two relief valves, then it sounds like a stuck or broken rear relief valve is the likely culprit. If it only has one relief valve the problem has to be something else. I think the money invested in a shop manual would be worthwhile, though.
 
   / Perplexing Hydraulic Problem #16  
I agree with you, Mark. The shop manual is a must, but I'm also thinking that the shop manual on the tractor will not show the backhoe interface. That's probably another manual entirely (if it's even available). I really feel sorry for Todd because he has a problem he may only find by tearing down his machine. I know he worked the hydraulics very hard digging his trenches and I suspect this is all related. He has to keep using his tractor to fill in the ditch to meet a deadline. Maybe after he gets that done, he will have time to do some in-depth troubleshooting and discover the problem./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / Perplexing Hydraulic Problem #17  
JimI - But I understood Todd to say that the same circuit also powers his three point hitch. Or did I misunderstand completely?
 
   / Perplexing Hydraulic Problem
  • Thread Starter
#18  
Wow Jinman. Thanks for the Hyd. schematic. Let me go through your long and windy (It wasn't really all that bad and could have been worse without the diagram) diagnosis and digest it.

Mchalkley: When I tested the flow it wasn't a trickle but I didn't try the thumb test. I suspect that thumb test (or some safer alternative) would not exhibit much pressure.

Also, yes I can run either the 3 Pt. by coupling the Power Beyond hose, which comes out of the Front Double Spool Remote Valve (#6 on your Jim's Schem) or couple it to the Backhoe hose. The 757C Backhoe is a framemount removable attachment so fortunately I have disengaged and dropped it so I can continue on with my loader work and get my inspections signed off. So it's either the backhoe or the 3Pt. via Power Beyond.

Then I can start tearing stuff apart although if my new house were done, I'd have a garage bay to dedicate to tractor/parts.... You guy's are extremely helpful and it's much appreciated.

Todd in Placerville
 
   / Perplexing Hydraulic Problem #19  
Todd - Hopefully, you can tell from a schematic if you have two relief valves. That should narrow things down a lot.

We're trying to help because we know how it feels to not have your toys working... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / Perplexing Hydraulic Problem
  • Thread Starter
#20  
After reviewing Jim's schematic for the TC series I have ordered the 1920 repair manual. There is no repair manual for the 757C Backhoe, only a parts manual which I ordered as well.

To test flow, does it make sense to run the FEL hose into a bucket for a 1/4 minute and compare that to the flow for a 1/4 minute on the power beyond hose which services both the BH and 3Pt.?

Still stumped. Todd
 
 
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