Unhappy about Starting at High Altitude

[Mech]

I'm pretty sure it isn't a fuel problem since if I keep the block heater plugged in it starts like a car... Quick turn of the key and it starts.

Originally Posted by tomd999

Hiya,


Whow, don't use a quick start kit on that little Deere, you'll run the risk of making some bad things happen. Those quick start kits were made for the older Diesels in the 60's and 70's like a Detroit 71 series. The injector pumps and injectors were lower pressure and they would suffer from poor cold starting.

I looked on the Deere and Yanmar site and the engine listed for the 3005 is a DI type so it should light right off after a few seconds of cranking. I have found with the DI engines I run is if the primary fuel system has an issue they tend to be tough starting after they sit for a day or 2. The Cummins B series suffers from this issue if the lift pump or the primary low pressure supply line leaks down.

Check your supply side from the tank cap all the way to the low pressure supply port on the injector pump. Make sure you have the pressure and flow specs right. You may have a leak down issue where the supply to the pump drains down away from the injector inlet and your cranking for several seconds until the low pressure supply restores fuel to the injector pump and therein supplies high pressure fuel to the injectors.

Hope it helps,

Tom

[Mech]

Thanks. It was installed when I bought it. I will call the dealer I bought it from in the morning. I don't have a problem putting it in myself.

I've already done the 50 hr service, I don't have a trailer and they charge an outrageous amount to get it or come out. I guess I could rent a trailer.

Since the dealer I bought it from doesn't want to admit it is a problem and since their service dept doesn't ever return my calls I don't want them to do it. The next closest dealer that said it needs a timing adjustment and I trust is about 90 minutes away. I actually buy all my filters, oil and parts (tool box, toothbar, hydraulic angle kit) from them even though they are twice as far away.

Originally Posted by shot_gun

I have a couple thoughts... If the block heater was installed by the dealer it should be covered under warranty. Travel time won't but be the job should be. Unless you bought MPP. Ether is for emergency only. I've seen the rings in a tractor look like someone took a torch to them because of ether. Time may help but I would want to check the timing first to verify it is were it should be. I would ask your dealer to put in a DTAC case on it if he hasn't already. That is the dealer resource when they have an oddity they can't figure out. 50 hours is time for your fist service. Maybe let the dealer do everything in one shot? Your problem must altitude related because even when it's cold here the 790's still start with just the preheat. Granted we are only 120 feet above sea level Let your dealer do their job.

[tomd999]

Hiya,

Afterthought, are you using a bio-Diesel blend? I have found they tend to be a bit tougher to start the higher the bio ratio. Have you tried different fuel brands or stations?

Tom

[shot_gun]

Sorry to here about that. If you trust the other dealer then let them handle it. I checked through all the cases in DTAC on the 790 and found none relating to high altitude starting. John deere doesn't pay for pick up and delivery and with diesel at 4.25 a gallon it doesn't take long to get outrageous. I topped off the rollback yesterday and 96 gallons was 426dollars. Good luck.

[Mech]

No just diesel I bought at the safeway grocery store pumps. Almost at the same altitude so it should be OK for here. It's not very old and I keep it in the garage. It's done this since it was delivered new a little over a year ago with the fuel the dealer put in it and never changed even though I have run quite a few gallons through it.

When I ran the compression calculations on my Yanmar the compression at this altitude on a perfect engine was very close to the lowest Yanmar allowed before a ring job was required. I'm pretty certain that its altitude since I've had two engines, both Yanmars, but one 30 years old and one new and now I have a dealer that says they have had to adjust timing for others to get their tractors to start.

I use to live near Colorado Springs, about 2000 feet lower and had a JD 1050 and it started fine so it must only when it gets to a little higher altitudes and slightly lower temperatures that keeps the fuel from igniting. I suspect if it got to 100 degrees here it might start just fine, but we will need a lot more global warming for that to happen and then this will be the least of our problems.

[Mech]

Originally Posted by shot_gun

Sorry to here about that. If you trust the other dealer then let them handle it. I checked through all the cases in DTAC on the 790 and found none relating to high altitude starting. John deere doesn't pay for pick up and delivery and with diesel at 4.25 a gallon it doesn't take long to get outrageous. I topped off the rollback yesterday and 96 gallons was 426dollars. Good luck.

$426 -- That is one of my tractor payments! I drive over 100 miles a day to and from work and I'm so luck I got a hybrid three years ago. I go almost 500 miles on a 10.5gallon tank. Of course I can't pull a trailer with a tractor on it.

[Superduper]

Personally, I would NOT be very happy if my tractor doesn't start on a regular basis without assistance. On the other hand, I probably wouldn't have waited very long before making a stink about it. Don't know if my 3120 would be affected the same way but I have a glow plug system on mine. I find it hard to believe that your tractor doesn't have it, I would think all modern diesels have them. Are you sure? On mine, there isn't a seperate switch: you turn the key to the run position for about 5 seconds before turning to crank position.

I believe your engine is also a 3TNV engine. If that is the case, I'm sure that if glow plugs are not there, you can implement them. Doing a timing change may help but it will alter the fuel curve completely. Sounds like all you need is a starting aid.

[Mech]

When I first got the tractor I did talk to my salesman (he said use the intake heater), tried to call their service dept twice, left an message and they never called me back. I talked about it on this forum. When I found out the block heater made it start easily I had other priorities and didn't pursue it further. My Bad.

Your right I believe my engine is a 3TNV82A. This is from my Technical Manual: Manifold Heater Circuit Operation
Function: To provide pre-heated air in the air intake manifold for
improved combustion during cold weather starts.
Operating Conditions: Key switch must be in the Start or Preheat position.
Theory of Operation: The ignition system is designed to inject diesel fuel into the piston cylinder where heat from compression ignites the
fuel and air mixture. When starting a cold engine, compression may not provide enough heat to ignite the fuel. A manifold heater is installed
to preheat the incoming air and provide added heat to the
combustion chamber. The heater is energized (heated) when the key switch is
placed in the start or preheat position.

My Yanmar 1610 had a system where it ignited some fuel in the intake and this one has a heating coil in the intake, both activated by turning the key counter clockwise. Neither had glow plugs. The fuel igniter worked better than the heating coil but I don't think either are intended to be used for every start.

[Mech]

JD responded:

Thank you for contacting our Web site.

We do apologize for any inconvenience you are experiencing. Please continue to work through your dealer in getting this issue resolved. The dealer has access to a factory technical assistance center and a field representative for those issues that require further advice or resolution.

Your concerns have been documented.

It seems like a reasonable response except we will see if my dealer can/will actually do something. It is said many times on this site that a good dealer is most important and I completely agree. I'm paying the price of buying from a dealer that mostly sells lawn mowers, generators and walk behind snow blowers.

[swines]

Originally Posted by Superduper

Personally, I would NOT be very happy if my tractor doesn't start on a regular basis without assistance. On the other hand, I probably wouldn't have waited very long before making a stink about it. Don't know if my 3120 would be affected the same way but I have a glow plug system on mine. I find it hard to believe that your tractor doesn't have it, I would think all modern diesels have them. Are you sure? On mine, there isn't a seperate switch: you turn the key to the run position for about 5 seconds before turning to crank position.

I believe your engine is also a 3TNV engine. If that is the case, I'm sure that if glow plugs are not there, you can implement them. Doing a timing change may help but it will alter the fuel curve completely. Sounds like all you need is a starting aid.

If you have a 3120 compact utility tractor, and think you have a glow plug system, I'd suggest you read the owner's manual:

9. For cold weather starting, use the intake air heater system. Activate the intake air heater system by pushing in the ignition key switch with the key, and holding it there for the required time:

10 - 15 seconds for temperatures as low as -18C (0-F).

15 - 30 seconds for temperatures below -18C (0-F).

You have an intake air heater system just like all the Yanmar engine based 3000 series tractors you DO NOT have glow plugs.