Should a JD 50 Series (5075E) start in Neutral when not in Park?

[CobyRupert]

"Does it always turn over on the second try?" : Not always: The first time it didn't start, it might of been the 3 or 4 try as I was fiddling w/ the shifter /park position. Later, throughout the day, it was either always on the 2nd try, then later on, it would start first try, repeatedly.....And yesterday it started first try no problem.
Three things that changed: 1) It got warmer throughout the day, 2) it got dryer. (It had been outside, in the 40's (temp), with several days of rain.) 3) I moved the hand throttle off idle.

VTsnowedin said: "Once I learned to move the throttle lever up a little I haven't had any problem so I think that was my problem." Hmm. I wonder if you're on to something. The manual does say to do this, but it doesn't say it won't turn over if you don't? The reason I thought it might be an "interlock"/"permissive" problem (Park switch, etc..) was once it does turn over, it turns over strong and fires right up. The flip side to this is hearing a "click" under the dash when it didn't start also made me wonder if all the "permissives" were okay, but maybe the contacts on a relay/solenoid weren't closing and it needs a couple "bumps" to pull them in?

Wonder if mechanic types know if fuel mix -throttle has to be off idle before it can start?

 

[corey9212]

"Does it always turn over on the second try?" : Not always: The first time it didn't start, it might of been the 3 or 4 try as I was fiddling w/ the shifter /park position. Later, throughout the day, it was either always on the 2nd try, then later on, it would start first try, repeatedly.....And yesterday it started first try no problem.
Three things that changed: 1) It got warmer throughout the day, 2) it got dryer. (It had been outside, in the 40's (temp), with several days of rain.) 3) I moved the hand throttle off idle.

VTsnowedin said: "Once I learned to move the throttle lever up a little I haven't had any problem so I think that was my problem." Hmm. I wonder if you're on to something. The manual does say to do this, but it doesn't say it won't turn over if you don't? The reason I thought it might be an "interlock"/"permissive" problem (Park switch, etc..) was once it does turn over, it turns over strong and fires right up. The flip side to this is hearing a "click" under the dash when it didn't start also made me wonder if all the "permissives" were okay, but maybe the contacts on a relay/solenoid weren't closing and it needs a couple "bumps" to pull them in?

Wonder if mechanic types know if fuel mix -throttle has to be off idle before it can start?

If it was your neutral switch you would have more problems coming up like it thinking you were in neutral when you were actually in gear. It's a cheap fix (and a pain to get to with the cab models.)

Throttle doesn't have to be off, I've started it with throttle off and with 1/4 throttle and it made no difference.

The warmer I could see helping cause it keeps oil thinner and the engine gets some pre heat from the sun.

 

[vtsnowedin]

The warmer I could see helping cause it keeps oil thinner and the engine gets some pre heat from the sun.

There are two types of heaters for this series. I have both. The one that maybe the problem heats the air in the intake mannifold between the dust filter and the turbo. It doesn't heat the oil or block and is operated by turning the key to the on position and pushing it in. Count to ten to thirty depending on how cold it is then crank her over and she starts right up with very little smoke. The other more traditional type plugs in to a extension cord and heats the engine coolant as well as the block and oil. That type has no connection to the starting circuit and would not be part of the problem.
Having the throttle in the closed idle position doesn't keep it from turning over all the time but sometimes it does. What the difference is between crank and no crank is a good question I haven't figured out yet.

 

[jd110]

The throttle has no effect on whether the starter cranks. The most likely problem areas could be starter relay, starter solenoid, or starter. I had a customer's 5065e with the same issue and his was the starter. Tractor was new and he always was able to start, but sometimes took multiple tries. If you have a voltmeter or test light, see if any power is going to small terminal of starter when trying to crank when it doesn't engage starter. If in warranty, make your dealer check it out.

 

[CobyRupert]

Thanks all. I wanted to eliminate the posibility it was a "permissive" (safety switch, etc..) problem. I think the manual saying you "need" to be in park is bull (and a red herring). Throttle position being a factor seems odd, but one never knows with electronic modules (unless you do know).

I think you're probably right jd110: Starter or starter solenoid seems likely. I could hear a starter relay (or was it the starter solenoid?) click when I'd turn the key. Are they two different things? (is there a relay under the dash that sends current to the starter solenoid?)
I'll try your test. Should I also test the 1 year old battery. With a voltmeter or a hydrometer? Both?

 

[corey9212]

There are two types of heaters for this series. I have both. The one that maybe the problem heats the air in the intake mannifold between the dust filter and the turbo. It doesn't heat the oil or block and is operated by turning the key to the on position and pushing it in. Count to ten to thirty depending on how cold it is then crank her over and she starts right up with very little smoke. The other more traditional type plugs in to a extension cord and heats the engine coolant as well as the block and oil. That type has no connection to the starting circuit and would not be part of the problem.
Having the throttle in the closed idle position doesn't keep it from turning over all the time but sometimes it does. What the difference is between crank and no crank is a good question I haven't figured out yet.

So it doesn't have glow plugs then when the key is pushed in? (I have the full winter package as well.) it says in the manual that there will be a buzzer sound that will continue until the engine is warm enough to crank, I've yet to hear this buzzing and the dealer said there isn't any so how would you know if the pre heat is working?

 

[CobyRupert]

The 50 series doesn't have glow plugs. I think their winter package consists of a (120V plug in) block heater and the intake air pre-heater.

 

[Notforhire]

So it doesn't have glow plugs then when the key is pushed in? (I have the full winter package as well.) it says in the manual that there will be a buzzer sound that will continue until the engine is warm enough to crank, I've yet to hear this buzzing and the dealer said there isn't any so how would you know if the pre heat is working?

As CobyRupert says, there arn't any glow plugs available for that engine. I have the intake pre-heater. There is no buzzer, light, ect. You can tell if it's working as the idiot lights dim slightly when you turn it on. Mine works well, as a starting aid.

Bill

 

[fieldman12]

At first I thought the issues where related to just the tractors made in India but it seems like the US tractors have issues just as well. I am reading allot on here people with loose coolant hoses. I have a new 5055E which that just turned 32 hours. I have had three coolant leaks in the first roughly 18 hours. After the second time I tightened every coolant hose I could find and got a leak again. Then I found my air intake hose that connects to back of turbo was starting to come off. I put it back on and tightened back up. On other end of hose where it attaches to pipe and has a clamp I tightned as well. I noticed on that end of hose it is swelled out on end I assume from where the clamp is tight and for some reason does not fit tight around pipe. I made sure clamp is tight but I don't like how the hose looks on pipe. It should seal around the pipe fairly tight in my opinion even before you put clamp on. I am thinking about having this hose replaced because of looks. It seems to me the hose material is cheap made and somewhat sponge they use. I have looked at other hoses on tractor and some have the swelled out end. Also it seems the clamps don't seem to stay tight well but again I think its the material of hose. I hope I have all my coolant leaks fixed now and air intake hose leaks fixed. I have checked every air and coolant hose clamp I can find on tractor. I have not got my dealer involved with these hose leaks since its a simple tighten hose clamp but it makes me mad. I mean I got a 2155 Deere with 3000 hours I am not tightening hose clamps on along with other brands of equipment. Overall I am really happy with the tractor but it seems like to me there is no inspector before these leave factory. I mean some of these clamps felt like a kid could have tightened them more.

 

[CobyRupert]

Fieldman: Yes I do too have a coolant leak. I think its at the top of the water pump. I can't tell if its at the threads of the fitting that goes into the pump or where the hose clamps on top the fitting. I was going to deal with it myself (if it was the hose), but as long as the tracor is going to the shop for a starter.....

Thanks for the info on the turbo hoses, I'll check mine too, seeing I have plenty of time (a week +1 day) from the time I called the dealer (Hudson River Tractor - NY) until they will send someone. At least they answered the phone, they ignored the emails I sent asking the same questions I asked here. Then again, seeing how you can't believe what the John Deere manual says, why would I believe their answers -if they actually answered....but they don't - MOOT! (Don't mind me I'm having a hypothetical arguement with myself)