5101E vs 5105M for Snow Business related.

[Greenpto35]

I Have bids coming in for a 5101E and 5105M Cab models with H260 loader. It was either spring for another truck to move snow or buy a machine that I can potentially use for firewood business, logging etc. that has better capacity than my 1070. The JD1070 is a great tractor but is a toy when used commercially.

Will have a pusher box in front hopefully on a hyd frame mt lift and a rear snowblower. I thought Pronovost's bi-directional snow thrower was in fact good both directions. It only throws in rear backing up mode. I'm not sure what to do now. My whole plan is thwarted. I Wanted rear back up capabililty for large drifts (8') around comm building fire exits. Also wanted ability to blow snow off fieldturf fields in forward. I need both directions.

Kage or similar pusher to be used in front that I can travel over roads with so expandable or folding etc. Utube vids of the 5100r are full of machines with this upgrade. They are all from the other side of the pond however. The kage pusher does tilt so perhaps a 10' unit makes the 8'6" cutoff when canted. It's all about efficiencies.

I'm most interested in tractor input/ opinion from those that have hrs doing loader operations in these machines or machines using similar transmissions. I have only ever used sync shuttle manual shift like my 1070 and true hydro. I'm old. No clutching for me forward to reverse thankyou. The quotes are coming with 12/12 power reverser with the dial to adjust shift speed as an option. Not sure what the 16/16 on the M would do for me or the newer trans they are offering. I have not tracked down an M to sit in but the sales guys are pushing the E's. 20 hrs at a wack would be realistic with a few breaks during bad storms. Air seats. Are they worth it. Is standard lighting sufficient. I don't really want to push from the loader so am considering a front frame mt 3ph type arrangement; LaForge style. I have to finance so am looking at new. I will keep my 1070 for loading salt into my spreader. I'm looking to gain time therefore more accts with the time savings. The snow blower opens up many more options as well.

I Currently run a 9'6" XV fisher on my 2500HD which is pretty good but hard on the steering components. I gained 50% increase in what I could do with the change from a straight blade. Now for the next level. A pusher box should save me a lot of time on my larger accounts. Not much room to put snow around here so it is usual to have to push to one end or perhap snow blow over an obstruction. It should make me $. That is the goal.

Let me know what you think given the machines I am interested in. I don't really want to debate brand or HP too much. 80+ pto HP is what is needed for a snowthrower. This is the max amount of tractor that I can travel with given my trailer and current truck. My truck will have to be upgraded in a year or so. I did look at the 6 series as well but they are to large to transport easily or work in my woods. If anyone has seen a snowblower that can be used on the rear and is true bi-directional please let me know. The other thought was a trad rear blower that could be mounted in front as well. Perhaps Hydraulic? experience with a push box type plow and suggestions welcome as well. Thanks in advance.

Eric

 

[CinderSchnauzer]

Around here large tractors are becoming very popular for clearing shopping plazas and other large paved parking areas. The local JD store sets up, probably between 20 / 25 each year and they come back, end of April and are sold to the locals. Majority are either 6430 Premium or 7230 Premium with Horst pushers. Choice units may have more to do with resale in the spring.

To your other point there are also a number of the New Holland bidirectional tractors, I think TV145, usually with triple stage blowers on one end and pusher or FEL on the other.

 

[Greenpto35]

Yes tractors are increasingly popular here as well for a non-agribusiness area. I can't go that big. Most of the Walmarts / bigbox lots are contracted through a large service corp. Not how I want to do business. One dealer pricing out a machine for me actually takes his new and used equipment and leaves it on site at different lots. They don't have to register it or insure for road use and theft is prob covered already. They hire labor to run it in case of snow. In the spring tractors are sold l as new or slightly used with a few hrs on it. Tough to compete with that... fortunately I'm established and have a good reputation. med sized Contracts tend to follow.

Horst HLA has an interesting wing plow line that has hydraulic end wings to create a box or straight blade. Folding ends allow road travel. Lots of moving parts though.

 

[AKfish]

I use my cab model JD5075M with 563MSL loader and 2-way hydraulic HD 8' rear blade for snow removal. With 4 wheel wts. 85" Workpro loader bucket the tractor is pretty much all of 12,000lbs! And, quite frankly, with trailer and tractor - the haul weight exceeds the legal load limit for my 2500HD Duramax.

So, if you're planning to trailer a 5105M (and most likely the 5101E) with loader and a hurkin' snow blower with a 2500HD Duramax... Well, you might want to reconsider!

AKfish

 

[Greenpto35]

Akfish, thanks for adding. Well, I have been considering that for the last few days. Your right of course. I'm on the edge with equip wts. Since I hadn't completely settled on a tractor/combo I didnt do the exact. homework on wts yet. I assumed 10K lbs plus. 12k lbs plus may be closer. The M is heavier than the E. I would like the rear capacity of the M. and I see the Laforge front 3PH for a blade is quite a bit beefier. Not sure what happened to E rockshaft engineering. How do you trailer your M. Hadn't figured in the tire ballast either. Most guys seem to be using the 6 series or similar (NH ts110 size) and suggesting the same. Still not sure on which tractor would be better for driveways long term. I don't want a toy. How do you like your M by the way.

There is potential for a Resi Plow business like presented on PlowSite but not on the scale that one might see in other places. Once set up, the business side of it, marketing to invoicing, could be exploited to expand into close neighboring towns IMO. Anyway.

Realistically, I would probably have to add a suitable flatbed truck and I would like a Hyd tilt trailer put into the equation for a longer term plan. My
chevy is an 04 2500HD and has seen some hard usage. My current Salter is not up to the quantity of salt I now need to spread either. Too small and too slow. It would seem that I have been operating at a scale economy that is the max I can do on my own, with the equipment I have. I either have to make a jump or be stuck where I am. It's a stressful decision quite frankly.

I see that driveway businesses are also using the larger 6 series tractors up north. 8 miles separates my current account. Condos on one end and commercial lots on the other. It's 15-20 min. in my truck doing 35 with all the traffic lights so that wouldn't change much with the tractor. I could hire a transport for the hauling the 2 times or so I would need to move it.

I don't have a long range plan. For this year I can sub a couple lots out which will not make me any money or I can purchase a more efficient tool to do the job my self. The money is probably the same given the cost of the equipment Except I would pay and own a 5th of the tractor and have something to plan and grow on for next year. I wouldn't trailer this year for a normal storm. I would like to trailer up to 60 mi. for other work between storms and also my wood lot is 35 mi north in southern ME which is where I would use and store the tractor in summer.

 

[AKfish]

The newer M's have a 5 inches longer wheelbase and the higher Hp models were >200lbs heavier than the 65-75hp tractors. So, you'll really be out there further on the edge - loadwise. I really like the hydraulics and the electro-hyd 3pt system of the M series. With detent, auto-stop and continous flow setting's on the SCV's you can tackle alot of different applications without looking for another tractor.

The response time and "hair-splitting" adjustment on the electro-hyd 3pt is just short of amazing after using the older, position control 3pt on other tractors! If you're setting the blade just off the top of the blacktop or concrete and that's "exactly" where you want it to STAY -- you need the e-hitch! And being able to connect and disconnect heavy attachments using the fender mounted control switches is a very good feature, too. Really helps reduce the "in the cab - out the cab"; back and forth traffic.

I don't have a good feel for the dimensions of your snow removal work. Square footage, tonnage pushed and stacked or blown, etc. etc. Or how much bigger you'd like to take it. IMO --- my money on the line --- I'd rent or lease for a season.

Bigger commercial guys up here go with loaders and larger skid-steers. Lot's of summer dirt contractors with 12-15yd dump trucks and 24-30ton trailers with a JD524-544 or Cat 950 and big bucket and/or push blade. Or Bobcat 300-330 tracksteers with big push blades, etc.

The single, biggest reservation I would have with using a 5000 machine in a residential environment is maneuverability. And that translates not only as just frame size but transmission and mechanical front drive system, too. Big open areas, long straight shots.... awesome! Lot's of fun! The powereverser transmission makes for a good loader machine. But, tight spots - close to building's and landscaping obstacles -- very stressful and hard on your body. Tractor will crab and lurch; just when you don't want it too - and it doesn't start or stop on a dime, either..

Case in point; I've got a JD110TLB, too. eHydro transmission. I'd guess that fully 75% of the time during the winter up here - the 110 will out work the 5075 - moving snow. Next to buildings, etc. - Backing up to a deck or garage door - inching up to the edge of the pavement or curb with the loader - the 110 will make you wanna hang the key for the 5075 up on the peg board next to the phone!

But, when it's snowing in white-out conditions or heavy wet snow-rain mix or you're on the side roads with 1/4 to 1/2 mile between mailboxes - you'll be kickin' that 110 into the shed - and turning up the heat in the cab of the 5075!

Long story - short; you best understand where your business is at: and where you'd like to go with it! But, a new M or E is gonna be $65-75K. Set up the way you'll want it. Throw in a big trailer and truck... well, you know where that discussion ends up!

You also mentioned the workload and how your crew: crew made up of "Me, myself and I" was getting towards efficiency limits, too. Equipment can help but it can also get you overcommitted --- especially if you've got some big finance bills to tackle every month!

AKfish

 

[PioneerMan]

Does anyone ever use a 4x20 for snow? Im sure it won't push like the big boys, but a big bucket or pusher and a nice snowblower on the back would do decent I would think. Prob get r1s. Then you would have a machine you could trailer, and ehydro. ?

 

[Greenpto35]

I hear all of that. Thanks for taking the time to post. And,thanks for the reality slap. Some rambling to follow:

I can't predict the future, nope. A few things I think about with this pursuit of a better, more efficient/ perhaps more profitable model are: A. I have a track record which includes slow but steady growth. B. I am not mechanically inept in an equipment rich endeavor and c. not foolish enough to dismiss my exposure or lack of experience. I also do not have any other business debt.

For those that do not have large amounts of disposable income there is alway real risk. No $ buffer means more risk everything the same. Not the kind that steals a few paychecks but the kind that could keep food off the table. Fortunately my wife works. So that is a decent buffer of sorts. I don't have the luxury of not thinking about risk with every purchase though, and every large contract. With that said, I am in business. It is not risk-free to stay stagnant and let someone else take the effort and risk to get efficient and put me out of business. I think a lot of us here are probably in the same boat to a greater or lesser degree. I feel the need to move forward. Just because I am comfortable where I'm at is not a good reason to be static. Leasing could be an option but except for Bobcat it isn't done too much to my knowledge around here. I have asked I have yet to receive an answer from local Deere. Perhaps on large loaders.

As far as knowing my business. I know where I'm at now. I'm aiming 4 ft in front of where I'm at. Looking to hit a target with many variables. Probably some unknowns as well. I lack experience with the exact configuration of equipment I am interested in, I confess, But have been using simple tractors and equipment for the last 20 yrs. Therefore, my probing questions and desire to receive reviews and opinions of different setups. Folks do use skids around here. I'm not interested. Until you get into the large units they are toys with the heavy snow/cement we get here.

I really was interested in your opinion on the equipment you own. If I understand, you don't feel like your M is configured to ease up to someone's new Mahogany paneled garage door for a snowblowing operation. You do like it in bad conditions. Traction and tire configuration must be good. Owning a clutch tractor and working hundreds of hrs picking Rocks or timbers with my forks I can appreciate that. My knee hurts just thinking about it. I hope those clutching days are over. You really like the enhanced 3PH controls. I think float is the normal position for snow blower in use. Guess I will have to test some machines out this week. Do you have a power reverser with modulation control? Certainly, the CVT version would be nice. Only offered on the R I think. Puma CVT's seem popular. I have a deere and NH dealer with in half hr drive. That's it. Kubota is an hr. Kubota is terrible here service wise. Guys take their machines elsewhere to have repairs done. I had limited dealings with them on a rental utility wbackhoe once. They were horrible.

As far as accounts. I have more than I can handle. Mostly small 1/2 acre or less. Most have complicated layouts. In a big winter money can be had moving piles around if equipment is mid size. Too big is not a selling feature for the smaller independent or franchises I deal with.

110 or the new model of it and a 244 or 344 loader is out of the question. The lots I bid on are not that big. With a snow blower on the rear I am also thinking gas stations as they typically don't have any place to put snow around here. No one wants to do them as a result. Too much of a pain. Back to Const. loaders. Future sale of a loader is not easy. I can't think of summer work for a loader either. I usually work on my own equipment after the warrantee period is over. I've found Deere dealers just want to plug and play lately instead of a rebuild or replacing a few o-rings. Probably endemic of where I live and the fact that more sales go to small horse farms and estates not real working farms. Actually of the 3 or 4 deere dealers within driving distance only one offers anything over 100HP, per deere corp. JD Manuals are awesome though. A good reason alone to go with Deere.

I'm not about to jump full on, into a new resi business that I don't know that much about when my established income right now is small commercial. I would test the waters with a leased machine next year after setting up the business. I still do want to purchase something for this season. I would like to obtain something that will do the commercial work therefore the front pusher or horst wing plow proposed by me. Meanwhile I do have a good lead on between storm work moving snow with an established client. I will need a snowblower for that. My current need is not a startup. The resi blower business would be a branching off of the commercial. I think there is enough info and potential in my area to try it for a year. I'm to late for this year though.

I have run a rented a 110 on a couple occasions mostly for the backhoe and I can see your point. EHydro is easy. Experience is the key with equipment I think. I rented a Toolcat with a big front blower that proved to be a dog as far as I was concerned. It was not high flow. The task, 4 olympic size artificial turf sports fields with 16" of wet heavy snow, with temps dropping into the single digits. Mission impossible. It would have been a tough one for any machine probably, but you don't know, what you don't know. Weight limits on machiney and 4W steer were imposed back then. Skids can not work on art turf.

Anyway, scaling up will involve some more manpower definitely and office related help. I will probably go to an LLC. So changes all around. The key for me is to get the right equipment right off the bat for the commercial aspect and if it fits the resi business all the better. I think I will find some machines to test drive to get a feel for size and maneuverability. I like the Utube videos that show a NH TS110 and another with a JD 6 series that actually show the cab while the drivers are cleaning the driveways. These are all Power Reverser type tranny's. you can see the operators shift the reverser. They seem to work without to many hiccups. Having split my 1070 for a clutch replacement a few years back I am mindful of things like wet clutch and wet brakes. General loader function Wear and tear and how much I don't want to do another clutch. A friend uses a full Hydro Kubota ,60hp I think,with a front mt snowblower and has had nothing but trouble. In the shop right now for an estimated $4k-5k fix. It only gets used with a snowblower in winter. Third time down in two years. Not good. I only add that to suggest, even ehydro can cause you some grief.

 

[MattLynch]

I think a 5E Limited is just what you are looking for. If you just need to get the job done buy the E, if you want a slighly heavier tractor with all the electronic bells and whitles buy the M. I do a little bit of snowclearing with my E and its more then enough for pushing and overkill for my 7' blower. If I did more then a few driveways I would want a big dual auger blower though.

 

[jenkinsph]

Greenpto35,
I can relate to running a business and taking some risks, we all have to weigh every decision and new cost. My concern with buying the larger tractors and loaders would be whether I could get enough use the rest of the year to help defray the cost. For instance I have a 110tlb with a Laurin cab and can use if for various jobs all year long but it isn't going to compete with a 6000 series tractor on a big job either. Hope you can figure it all out and good luck with your decision.