Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 32
  1. #1

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    93
    Location
    Lake Conroe area, Tx
    Tractor
    John Deere 3720

    Default JD 3x20 cost v benefit comparison + street prices!

    Please refer to the previous post if you want any history on how we got to this point....

    I will try to present what data I have been able to gather in a fair and objective manner.

    I am leaving out the 3120 due to lack of complete data (accurate street pricing, etc.) and the fact this post was born out of the step up considerations from a 3320 to its two more powerful turbocharged stablemates, the 3520 and 3720. Generally, the 3320 will serve as a proxy (although a little shy) in this comparison for the 4410 (to the extent they remain available in the market, and because I dont have a quote on one - maybe one of you does).

    As you know the vehicle weight is the same for all these mid frame bretheren at 2900# on the head. Also note the hydraulic flow potential is exactly the same for all models as well (4410 included).

    3320 HST:
    List $20,263 with small R-4's.
    Local street price: $15,900
    Gross HP 32.5
    HST PTO HP 25.5 (or 25 depending on what brochure you are looking at)
    Max Torque at Rated Speed 61.6 ft-lbs.
    Power to wieght ratio 1:0.0112
    Cost Per HP: $489.23
    Cost of Torque: $258.11/ft-lb.

    3350 HST:
    List $22,303 with small R-4's
    Local Street Price $17,400
    Gross HP 37
    HST PTO HP 30
    Max Torque at Rated Speed 71.1 ft-lbs
    Power to weight ratio 1:0.0127
    Cost Per HP $470.27
    Cost of Torque: $244.72/ft/lb.

    3720 HST:
    List $24,683 with small R-4's
    Local Street Price $19,100
    Gross HP 44
    HST PTO HP 35
    Max Torque at Rated Speed 84.3 ft-lbs
    Power to Weight Ratio 1:0.0151
    Cost Per HP $434.09
    Cost of Torque $226.57/ft-lb.

    Lets assume that while the torque ratings are at the crank, the available PTO torque is exactly proportionate, (i.e.: tranny losses are constant across the board).

    OK there is a nice declining power cost as you go up the ranks - partially due to the constant weight of all machines and partially due to smart marketers.

    Analysis: The power differential between the 3320 and the entry turbo 3520 is $2,040 list and $1,500 in the real world. For that you get 4.5 HP (Gross and PTO), at a cost of $333.33 per HP. You also get 9.5 ft-lbs of added torque, at an incremental cost of $214.73 per ft-lb.

    One might point out that while the cost of the first unit of power be it HP or torque is the same as the last unit, (due to simple math), the VALUE of the first unit of power is infinite compared to the value of the last increment. I think that is a fair and impartial statement of fact. Said another way, you can't run a tractor with no power. You need a certain amount just to get by. Question is how much is "sufficient" and how much is "plenty" and how much is "brutally powerful" (and how do you put that punishing power to work)?

    I know, I know, if you are male, more HP is better...and "its all subjective" - "a personal choice" or "depends on your needs" - but that is all a bunch of hockey since none of us knows what we will ultimately ask our machines to do. Remeber the first rule of toys...err...I mean tractors. You never know what the extent of work is you will be using them for until you get one. Hawthornes Principle: "Work expands to fill the HP alloted".

    Anyway, too much inside the box thinking just kills the game so just play along and lets see where this goes, OK? I promise I have no agenda and am doing these calcs in real time, so I dont know the answer, and that assumes there will be one!

    Analysis (cont'd): The power differential between the 3520 and the most powerful unit, the intercooled turbo 3720 is $2,380 list and $1,700 in the real world. For that you get 7 Gross HP but this time only 5 extra PTO HP, (??Go figure), at a cost of $340.00 / $476.00 per Gross / PTO HP, respectively. You also get a beefy 13.2 ft-lbs of added torque, at a cost of $180.30 per ft-lb. of incremental torque. (Cheaper by comparison due to the relatively large gain in torque. Nice...but since we said early on the first HP is invlauable and the last is incremental, how valueable is it in the real world since it is at the top of the scale?)

    Finally, (you may have other thoughts or ways to read the tea leaves here but I am just about done), the first step turbo seems to be disproportionately high in cost (adds $2,040), for what you get. However, if you are solidly into the 3520 range, the 3720 seems easier to justify, as and additional $2,380 seems buys a lot of torque bang for the buck. The same cannot be said of the HP differential as it costs more per HP (at least at the PTO), to upgrade from the 3520 to the 3720.

    In Summary: Moving up from the 3320 to the 3520 will cost you just under 10% more $$$ and give you 14% more grunt (HP).

    Moving up from the 3520 to the 3720 will cost you another almost 10% in cash and yeild a 19% gain in HP, (engine not PTO).

    The jump from a 3320 to the class leader is $3,200 (street) and nets you 11 1/2 HP (10 at the PTO) and 23.2 ft-lbs. of torque. Said another way the 3720 will cost you 20% more than the 3320 for 35.4% more HP and 36.8% more torque.

    Compelling Thought: the welter weight (orange belt) pocket rocket compact contender - Bota's B3030 has a power to weight ratio you would expect to be huge due to its excellent HP and light weight. Although many (esp on this forum) might argue the 3030 has more snort than bones, its power to weight ration is suprisingly close to the 3720 at an impressive 1:0.0162 compared to the 3720 at 1:0.0151, based on Gross HP, and an eyelash off at 1:.0124 vs. 1:0.0120 on a PTO basis. Very close. I would imagine this is quite a compliment for the 3720 in terms of its muscle per pound.

    Price per HP is another matter, as you might expect as the Bota costs $453 vs. 434 for the 3720. (Woops!) NO I ASSUMED WRONG!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

    How about for power where the rubber meets the road, as it were...$591 per PTO HP for the Bota vs. the 3720 at $ 545 per PTO HP.

    Well cut me off at the knees and call me Shorty!! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

    JD is STILL cheaper - Whooda Thunk That?!!

    Please realize that the old saying is true...figures lie and liars figure. I could have run the percentages using the larger more powerful models as a basis and the numbers would be much different so dont be fooled. (For example while the last statement from the first paragaraph of "Analysis (cont'd) analysis true if stated using the 3320 as the basis and looking up from there, if stated the opposite way "the 3320 has x% less than 3720", the numbers would not match. BTW in that case, x would be only = 26%, instead of 35.5%.

    I was unsucessful at fining a Yanmar torque curve for the TNV engines for comparison to post along with this data. If someone had such it would be useful to see a graphical representation of the RPM ranges where the differences occur. I would agree with those of you who suggested tractors are better suited for turbos than cars since tractors tend to have their throttles set for individual tasks and cars demands are less predictable and span twice the RPM range. Diesels are also built to handle more heat, stress and punishment than a motor gas IC engine. Despite the added complexity, it is true that diesels are more naturally suited for such punishment.

    How do you feel about this information? Did you spend time poking at the numbers before choosing or did you go to the dealer and drive off into the woods and start a bulldogging competition between the models? Did you just pick the biggest one in this class or were you somewhat disappointed with your last tractor and wanted to fix the power issue for good? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

    I will look forward to your thoughts.

  2. #2
    Elite Member rockyridgefarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    4,455
    Location
    Road 4310
    Tractor
    Deere 4310 HST MFWD

    Default Re: JD 3x20 cost v benefit comparison + street prices!

    There ARE people that can help you! -Trained professionals... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]



    TNV Engine Data
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    286
    Location
    southern NH
    Tractor
    JD 4100 HST, Craftsman YS4500

    Default Re: JD 3x20 cost v benefit comparison + street prices!

    As I read this post, the first thought that crossed my mind is "this guy must be an engineer". I clicked the name and BINGO ! That is not an insult, as I have the greatest respect for engineer(s), but their threads give them away [img]/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

  4. #4
    Elite Member Kyle_in_Tex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    4,681
    Location
    Giddings, Texas
    Tractor
    JD 4310,JD5420

    Default Re: JD 3x20 cost v benefit comparison + street prices!

    I did some of the figuring you did. My budget is what figured into the parameters more than the rest. I do know now that I wish I had more HP/torque. My 4310 has about 25 Hp at the pto and the 3720's 35 hp is very appealing. When mowing our pastures, usually not a big problem (5' mower) until I hit what we call Buffalo grass. Unfortunately, our pastures have spots of this stuff and its tough. It will bog down the 4310 even taking half a cutter width to a crawl. The rest of the coastal bermuda cuts easy enough averaging maybe 5-6 mph whilst taking about an 90% cut width(overlap).
    Seasalt, you need to let us know what are you wanting to do with the machine? If you hook up a 6' box blade and try to scrape a bunch of hard clay you'll wish you had either more HP or more time in a day. Most other chores won't tax the HP/torque as dirt moving and mowing (unless you buy a big hay baler or something).
    Like I said before, If I could do it all over again, I'd get the most HP in this class.

    One equation I didn't see and I can assure you:
    Cost to upgrade now < Cost to upgrade later

  5. #5
    Elite Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    3,196
    Location
    Red Oak, Texas
    Tractor
    JD 5525 and 5093e Kubota SVL75

    Default Re: JD 3x20 cost v benefit comparison + street prices!

    I did the same thing and ended up with a 4720. The marginal costs with each upgrade is lower as you go up the line. My dealer was trying to talk me into a 4520, but it was only $700 more for a 4720. I have done plenty of spreadsheets and have come to the same conclusion - you can spend more money and feel like you are saving money!

    D.

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    35
    Location
    East Central Missouri
    Tractor
    J.D. 3320 / Ford 900

    Default Re: JD 3x20 cost v benefit comparison + street prices!

    Only you know what you really want. Buy it and dont look back. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    93
    Location
    Lake Conroe area, Tx
    Tractor
    John Deere 3720

    Default Re: JD 3x20 cost v benefit comparison + street prices!

    excellent input, Kyle, D. and Cruzr. Thanks. Mowing for me is covered under NAFTA for now, but that is just my 2/3 or my residental acre. Current tasks would be building a driveway extension to a new XS parking area in an undeveloped wooded arce and then a shed or small barn for my tools, woodshop, greenhouse and tractor / trailer rigs. Another connected wooded acre is likely in my future. Thus in addition to grooming my existing areas, maintaining granite gravel drives and parking areas, logging downed and felled trees out, there are the expanded tasks we rarely consider when purchasing. I think of this as a long term purchase and hope it will do a lot of moderate stumping and dirt spreading I can no longer do after a back inujury two years ago (rear end hit by a mac truck) largely rendered my two wheeled wheel barrow and shovel collection almost useless. That was when I lived in the city - I would routinely overload my 1/2 ton pu with mulch or top soil or rock or gravel, etc. just to maintain that yard. Now although I am in a residential subdivision the lots are all 1 to 3 acres and heavily wooded. Not much for neighbors. Also have a lake cabin and future desires for a little patch of land of my own in the hill country. Future needs will probably include mowing if I selectively clear the small underbrush and trees from my existing land and leave the best trees. At that point I would like to make the added acreage like a park/buffer from neighbors with trails, etc. Beyond that who knows...

    Would hate to have a 3000# machine with a 1000# FEL (300CX) come up short on any of those tasks.

    Have ordered a PH digger and 60" box blade as starter implements. I am no farmer, and this is in some ways admittedly a mid life replacement for my porsche (smashed in the accident). Want to feel good about it and be able to spend more time outside as I am an outdoor kind of guy.

    You might say I am a Sailor turned Landlubber.

    Cost vs benefit is important to us all. But I dont have severe restrictions on being able to get what I want. I also want resale to be maximized and as pointed out upgrade (tradein) hits cand be a real pain, possibly, compared to what $3200 up front to guarantee I have both a wonderfully capable machine and a high demand reseller. If I thought all that were available in the 3520 I could save the last 1700 and just bump 1500 up from the 3320 to get the 3350. Otherwise I can stay where I am at the 3320 which is looking dim, or go all the way with a 3720.

    Hope that helps.

  8. #8
    Elite Member Kyle_in_Tex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    4,681
    Location
    Giddings, Texas
    Tractor
    JD 4310,JD5420

    Default Re: JD 3x20 cost v benefit comparison + street prices!

    Don't plan on removing stumps easily with a FEL. This is a job for a backhoe. If removing stumps is a high priority, you need to re -evaluate your needs. It sounds like a 3720 tractor could more than handle your immediate needs (except for stump removal). The backhoe attachments are pricey, 6K-7.5 K.

  9. #9
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    109
    Location
    near Buffalo, NY

    Default Re: JD 3x20 cost v benefit comparison + street prices!

    Seasalt,
    There is one, and only one way to make the right decision when analyzing something so specifically.
    Play "spin the bottle"... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    93
    Location
    Lake Conroe area, Tx
    Tractor
    John Deere 3720

    Default Re: JD 3x20 cost v benefit comparison + street prices!

    Kyle,

    Had not expected the FEL to handle more than a 3" or 4" stump.

    Didnt think the BH was good money spent at first, (still dont). Am planning on a PH digger and have been given some clues as to how it might be used to coax out larger stumps using a chain or strap. Posts here suggest BH has limited capabilities other stump popping and digging giant trenches or holes. Can see small water and elect trenches but dont need to take all afternoon and end up with a 12 inch wide trench to do that I dont think.

    Dealer suggested I drill a hole on either side of the stump and pour a bag of charcoal in each then light and cover with a tin panel. Burns the roots quite effectively he said. You should be able to push the stump over at that point.
    Alternate idea is to rent a mini track hoe to attack the stumps.

    Thanks for the note of caution. Do you own a BH?

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
© 2014 TractorByNet.com. TractorByNet is a registered trademark of IMC Digital Universe, Inc. Other trademarks on this page are the property of their respective owners.