JD 450C will not start after normal operation and normal shutdown

[greenmojo]

Hello all!

This is the only place I could think of to bring an issue with my recently acquired 1980 John Deere 450C. I've only posted a few times, but read constantly. I appreciate any feedback and guidance, thanks in advance.

I'll detail the full picture here, possibly to help with diagnosing and not wasting anyones time.

I bought the 450C about 1 month ago or more and had it first delivered to Pape Machinery up here in the pacific northwest, they replaced a few hoses, a throttle cable, radiator cap, etc -- otherwise giving it a clean bill of health before delivering to my property. The dozer started and ran great, and I ran it for more than 20 hours or more without a single issue.

Symptoms:
Upon moving the dozer one evening, I went to start it up and the start button had absolutely no effect. The key turned, there was a little gauge movement, but the starter button when pressed made no sound, nothing. There was a little change on the battery gauge, but other than this nothing. In order to start the machine, I shorted the solenoid and it fired right up. Strangely, it actually worked about 4 or 5 times with the starter button after this, before once again the starter button appeared to no longer work.

This went like this for about a week, when in fact the starter failed completely. When I pulled the starter and took it down to Pape, they discovered that fuel had leaked into the starter and caused it to fail, which still puzzled them and me why the starter button was intermittently having issues. I was hoping a new starter / solenoid would fix the issue, and eagerly got the new starter / solenoid installed.

As soon as it was installed, I turned the key, hit the button and it fired up better than it ever had. I also found the fuel leak and tightened up that line. This starting / stopping continued for about 8 times yesterday afternoon following the repair, however I shut it down for a few minutes and when I jumped back on it, the start button issue had returned. A push of the button has absolutely no effect at all. Just a small fluctuation in the battery gauge, but other than that -- no sound, no solenoid click, no crank, nothing.

As for the common neutral safety wiggle that some 450 dozers have, this one doesn't have that -- we've never had to wiggle or adjust, we just put it in neutral and it would start right up. And just to be sure, I've tried to hold the start button and wiggle the heck out of gear lever, and nothing appears to happen.

I would appreciate any insight, guidance or experiences to help. I absolutely love moving dirt with this machine and would love to have it back in push button start operation again.

I'll attach a photo, of the machine.

Thank you,

 

[DT86]

It could be a faulty push button or wiring.

Very nice looking old dozer, btw.

 

[jenkinsph]

I would start by checking for voltage at the solenoid to make sure you are getting power thru the switch, just verify that the switch is working. I would also suggest you check all the wiring from the batteries cables including the ground to the frame/block. Might be as simple as a loose connection to the starter switch as this could vibrate loose while running and would not be noticed until you tried to start it again.

 

[mfreund]

As I read this I was thinking bad ground or loose connection, jenkinsph beat me to it.

 

[greenmojo]

I would start by checking for voltage at the solenoid to make sure you are getting power thru the switch, just verify that the switch is working. I would also suggest you check all the wiring from the batteries cables including the ground to the frame/block. Might be as simple as a loose connection to the starter switch as this could vibrate loose while running and would not be noticed until you tried to start it again.

On the first go-around before shorting, we thought we had correctly diagnosed that there was voltage through the solenoid. However, just to be sure and start fresh, I will check this again and then report back. The new house is about 3 hours away from our current home, so I will be there on Monday or Tuesday.

Thanks for the insight, if anyone has any other ideas to check when I am there, I am open. Thank you,

~moses

 

[Tx Jim]

Unless the neutral start switch(parts key #16) has been circumvented(bypassed) I'll bet JD installed one for everyone's SAFETY. JD installed these kit's to aid in low voltage on the starter solenoid exciter wire.
RE42993 Starter Motor Kit ADD 93.09 USD

 

[greenmojo]

I don't know enough to follow your train of thought here.

Is this something I should look at installing or is this where my problem may be at?

I sit behind a keyboard all day, and am slowly learning (and loving) the mechanical side of things. Sorry for not being able follow you as quickly as I should.

~moses

 

[Tx Jim]

1st photo shows location of JD factory installed neutral start switch
2nd photo shows a kit that JD introduced for hard to start utility tractors(same engine as 450C) because of voltage loss between battery to ignition switch to neutral start switch to starter solenoid. Kit eliminates amperage drop from key switch to solenoid on starter solenoid excitement(energize) wire. That's the best diagnoses I can give you from the info you given me.

 

[Zebrafive]

Possibly a faulty key switch. Not powering start button every time.

TxJim are there any circuit breakers that could be intermittently failing?

 

[greenmojo]

1st photo shows location of JD factory installed neutral start switch
2nd photo shows a kit that JD introduced for hard to start utility tractors(same engine as 450C) because of voltage loss between battery to ignition switch to neutral start switch to starter solenoid. Kit eliminates amperage drop from key switch to solenoid on starter solenoid excitement(energize) wire. That's the best diagnoses I can give you from the info you given me.

Excellent, that makes complete sense. The neutral safety switch is installed and does work (when it started), as sometimes I would forget to make sure it was in neutral before starting and there would be no response.

I'll pull the panel off when I get over there and see what is there, I imagine from your photo that I'd be able to tell if that had been installed or not.

I'll also check the switches and start button. Thank you all so much, and again, if you have even the slightest ideas of anything else I should check, I am open.

~moses