3038e electric help

   / 3038e electric help #21  
Boostrd said:
Does the cluster have some sort of control or does it relay power to the starter?
Click to expand...

I don't know how your tractor is wired, nor your instrument cluster, BUT it is possible that to get the voltage you need to the starter solenoid that it runs through your ignition switch and through your instrument cluster via one of the gauges then to the solenoid.
What I'd like to know is what the voltage drop goes to when you turn your ignition to the on, and then start, (crank engine) positions. If for instance the voltage drops to 11 or 10.5 or something similar, even without cranking the starter over, but while the key is turned to crank, then there is NOT enough voltage to turn the engine over anyway, which partly explains why the jumping of the battery allows the engine to crank.
When in the sequence of things going bad did the cluster flake out on you?
I ask this because I think you may have a couple of issues going on at once.
Here's my rough theory based on my understanding of what you experience:
The cluster is not working properly. The new ignition switch did not solve your no crank/starter inoperative condition. Jumping, to the battery cranks the starter, BUT does not make the engine run.
I think when you jump the battery you get enough amperage, (current flowing to the starter) to make it crank over the engine, BUT fuel delivery is hampered by a relay that is defective, or not energized, thus no fuel delivery and consequently no starting the engine. Possibly the relay for the fuel delivery solenoid is 'connected' to being energized by the cluster supplying voltage?

You said you checked the relays, how? What did you do to verify they are working? Do you have access to a schematic for the start and fuel circuits?
If so, can you post them to be examined?
 
   / 3038e electric help
  • Thread Starter
#22  
Coyote machine said:
I don't know how your tractor is wired, nor your instrument cluster, BUT it is possible
that to get the voltage you need to the starter solenoid that it runs through your ignition switch and through your instrument cluster via one of the gauges then to the solenoid.
What I'd like to know is what the voltage drop goes to when you turn your ignition to the on, and then start, (crank engine) positions. If for instance the voltage drops to 11 or 10.5 or something similar, even without cranking the starter over, but while the key is turned to crank, then there is NOT enough voltage to turn the engine over anyway, which partly explains why the jumping of the battery allows the engine to crank.
When in the sequence of things going bad did the cluster flake out on you?
I ask this because I think you may have a couple of issues going on at once.
Here's my rough theory based on my understanding of what you experience:
The cluster is not working properly. The new ignition switch did not solve your no crank/starter inoperative condition. Jumping, to the battery cranks the starter, BUT does not make the engine run.
I think when you jump the battery you get enough amperage, (current flowing to the starter) to make it crank over the engine, BUT fuel delivery is hampered by a relay that is defective, or not energized, thus no fuel delivery and consequently no starting the engine. Possibly the relay for the fuel delivery solenoid is 'connected' to being energized by the cluster supplying voltage?

You said you checked the relays, how? What did you do to verify they are working? Do you have access to a schematic for the start and fuel circuits?
If so, can you post them to be examined?
Click to expand...

I checked the voltage again. It is showing 13.1 volts at the battery. 12.9 at the starter( at the battery connection not the soleniod) with the ignition off. 12.8 with it turned to the on position. 12.2 when I turn the ignition to start.

The problem just started a week ago. I used the tractor about a month ago everything was fine and went out last week the cluster did not work and no start.

I pulled the relays and checked point where the relays go in and I have great voltage, I pulled all of the relays put them on my work bench with another 12 volt battery and tested them with a volt meter. I tested that the relay closed the circuit and had no resistance across the switch.

I don't have any schematics but I will try and get some
 
   / 3038e electric help #23  
A little late to this thread, but wanted to share this. I had to take all the sheet metal off my small tractor to include the seat to make a repair. I wanted to make sure it started, before I put it back together. I put a piece of 14 gauge wire in the seat plug to jumper it, engine did not turn over. Put a jumper wire that has alligator clips on it, I have used this jumper wire for a number of things, engine did not turn over. Took the seat switch out of the seat, taped it down put it in and the tractor fired up.

I have not gone back and tired to figure out why my 2 methods of jumping did not wrong.

I suggest you use a volt meter to make sure the safety switches are in fact jumper correctly. If yours is a hydro model (which most likely it is) make sure the pedals are center (will not start if they are not). Along with the seat switch make sure the PTO is off. Double check range lever is in high or low.
 
   / 3038e electric help
  • Thread Starter
#24  
I just talked to the local dealer and the ace mechanic said that Jd is using a interlock control? So jumping the safeties will not work. He also said that it sounds like the instrument cluster is the culprit beings it is not working it probably sends the voltage to the starter?
 
   / 3038e electric help
  • Thread Starter
#25  
JD5210 said:
A little late to this thread, but wanted to share this. I had to
take all the sheet metal off my small tractor to include the seat to make a repair. I wanted to make sure it started, before I put it back together. I put a piece of 14 gauge wire in the seat plug to jumper it, engine did not turn over. Put a jumper wire that has alligator clips on it, I have used this jumper wire for a number of things, engine did not turn over. Took the seat switch out of the seat, taped it down put it in and the tractor fired up.

I have not gone back and tired to figure out why my 2 methods of jumping did not wrong.

I suggest you use a volt meter to make sure the safety switches are in fact jumper correctly. If yours is a hydro model (which most likely it is) make sure the pedals are center (will not start if they are not). Along with the seat switch make sure the PTO is off. Double check range lever is in high or low.
Click to expand...

It is a hydro and I have tried all the things you said multiple times. And just found out about the safety switch.
 
   / 3038e electric help
  • Thread Starter
#26  
I just want to thank everyone on the forum and thread that are giving me the help. Even though there is no headway I greatly appreciate everyone's help thank you!
 
   / 3038e electric help #27  
   / 3038e electric help #29  
Your mechanic buddy is right about the interlock.

Here's the way interlock works on the newer stuff they bring in at my job:

The seat operator presence switch gets all gunked up and won't let the tractor start. So you run a wire around it, bypassing the switch.

But that doesn't work. Why? Because the engineers know that people will bypass the switches, so the interlock looks for a SPECIFIC voltage thrown by the switch, not just 12 volts, and it knows when you are bypassing a switch when it sees 12 volts.

So the option of bypassing switches until you find the problem may not work on a newer tractor.
 
   / 3038e electric help
  • Thread Starter
#30  
I just want to thank everyone for an awesome experience on the site. Great ideas and info, I ordered a new gauge cluster and weather it was the interlock or the thermister idk but the tractor is starting running and flawless again. Thank you guys for all the help!!!!
 
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