Kioti backhoe 2376 leaks-defective design

[jim_n_nh]

Originally Posted by KiotiDave

Hi,
This thread is getting to be worn out.
Let's put things into perspective here.
1. Jim bought a used piece of equipment private sale.
2. Jim bought a backhoe that was 1-1/2 years out of factory warranty.
3. Jim comes on tractorbynet complaining of a defect in design from Kioti
4. Jim says others have had the same problems(3-4) hardley an epidemic.
5. Jim, maybe should have checked out the machine before buying from
private sale. No dealer to help out.
6. Jim gets his tractor to a dealer and gets the tractor registered into his
name. Until now Kioti didn't even know who he is.
7. Jim talks to Kioti, they call me. I tell them what is wrong, Kioti comes up
with a plan. WHICH THEY HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO DO WITH THE EQUIP
MENT 19MONTHS OUT OF WARRANTY.
8. KIOTI REPLACED THE HOSES ON THE LOADER, SENT A NEW BACKHOE
VALVE ASSEMBLY AT 1/3 DEALER COST AND HAD US DO A FEW OTHER
CHANGES ON THE MACHINE. IN A NUT SHELL WE DID ABOUT $3000
WORTH OF WORK AND TRANSPORTING AND THE CUSTOMER PAID ABOUT
$1200.
9. I THINK KIOTI HAS MORE THAN STEPPED UP TO THE PLATE ON THIS
MATTER!!!!!!!!!
10. Jim also had us change 2 sets of bad bushings and pins on his boom and
dipperstick. Another indication that he bought an abused piece of
equipment.
11. NOW JIM IS STILL BASHING THE KIOTI NAME WHEN THEY CAME IN TO
HELP A CUSTOMER WHO REALLY HAD NO CLAIM.
THIS MACHINE WAS ABUSED AND NOT MAINTAINED, THIS HAS NOTHING
TO DO WITH WARRANTY!!!!
Now, this opinion may not be the most popular with consumers, but you have to be realistic when you make a mistake and purchase something that is in worst shape than it appeared. BUYER BEWARE.
I may lose a little face in this matter, but the record had to be set straight.
I will bend over backwards to help a customer who appreciates the fact they are getting help when it is not warranted. It seems you will always have 1 or 2 you cannot satisfy no matter what you do.
I realize that Jim had nice things to say about us, but KIOTI is the one who really steped up here.
Thanks for listening.
KiotiDave

Look at item number 4, 2 to 4 machine problems would not generate a service bulletin. It would have been nice if I was told there was a service bulletin when I asked.

Number 6, I was told the tractor was now in my name, I never filled out any paperwork but I had talked to 4 seperate dealers trying to trace down the problem, I gave all of them both the tractor serial number and the backhoe. I did my part.

Number 7, Actually Dave you contacted me and said Kioti would be calling, They didn't, I then called Mr Carter multiple times. After the first phonecall I got through to him I have never heard from him again.

Number 8 I don't know why the whole valve assembly was replaced. It appears to only need Orings, part of it had been replaced before up in Lancaster, NH. Maybe it would help hide the defective design.

I don't hear from you on the board, what are you and the big Bad wolf scared of.

Why didn't you bring forth the service bulletin. Please answer in print here.

[unhappykioti]

I think this thread needs to get ended. Kioti owes you NOTHING!!! You bought a used defective piece of equipment. Let the buyer beware. You want someone to pay for your mistake. I have a mental picture of someone stomping their feet and pouting because they aren't getting their way. Were you rude and demanding to Mr Carter? Perhaps that is why he doesn't want to talk to you.

[KiotiDave]

Here we go again...
This is a perfect example of everyone is responsible but JIM.
Jim had a problem, I tried to help. The first thing I did to his machine was to change to the 4 hose set-up(NO CHARGE, KIOTI PAID)
The reference to 3-4 tractors are my dealings with this matter, my own experience, not nationwide.
As for the abuse, I consider a machine that is worked and not maintained, an abused machine. When I pull a pin and the joints are bone dry(all of the Backhoe Joints) and the bushiings are paper thin, I call that abuse.
I never acused Jim of abuse as I don't think he had it very long. In any case I think he could have invested in a little grease, just the same.
I have worked in the automotive, boating and tractor business for years. When a manufacturer covers a part under full or partial warranty they have a thing called part disposition. Every dealer has to hold the part pending warranty payment as the manufacturer can request a part be sent back for inspection. This is exactly what was told to Jim, but as usual he has selective hearing. He thinks Kioti is hiding the part(PLEASE!!!! it is on my shelf in my shop. The list price of this valve is 3 times what Jim paid. If he can find a $300 valve on E-BAY good luck to him. These new valves are extremely high quality.
A service bulletin is issued in any industry when a trend arises to help the dealers come to a quick diagnosis and repair to save money in labor costs. IT DOES NOT MEAN RECALL. Even though the problem only occurs on a small percentage, it sometimes will effect a change in the manufacturing process in mid production. This is a good thing as Kioti is constantly trying to improve their products. This has been going on for years in every industry and it is how products are improved. The automotive industry is famous for this.

I have been nothing but truthful to this man from day one. I knew this could turn into a real mess and against my better judgement, I still worked on this tractor. Seems like a big mistake. First I'm a good guy, OOPS now I'm a bad guy.

THE FACT STILL REMAINS THAT THIS TRACTOR WAS PURCHASED SECOND HAND AND A YEAR AND A HALF OUT OF WARRANTY BY SOMEONE WHO DID NOT SPEND A FEW BUCKS TO HAVE IT CHECKED OUT. NOW HE THINKS EVERYONE IS AT FAULT BUT HIM.

In 5 years on this site I have tried to help people when I can. I guess I should be more selective, but that may leave out someone who would appreciate a little help.
I THINK THOSE THAT LIKE TO HATE WILL KEEP THIS GOING, BUT I FOR ONE WILL NOT RESPOND TO THIS THREAD AGAIN. I HAVE GRATEFUL CUSTOMERS TO TEND TO, AND THIS IS STARTING TO GIVE ME A HEADACHE.
KiotiDave

[IslandTractor]

The unfortuante thing about this thread from my perspective is that KiotiDave has been put on the defensive even though it is pretty darn clear that he did everything an excellent dealer would do to help in this situation. I do think Jim is over the top in his complaining and that, as noted by others, he bought a poorly maintained machine from a liar in a private sale and now wants someone to bail him out. However, I think the reason he is getting any sympathy at all here is a direct result of experiences some of the other customers have had in being stonewalled by Kioti customer service and therefore his complaints, at least at first, seem plausible. This thread has evolved (?degenerated) into a unjustified and unreasonable customer rant against a company that sets standards for poor communication with customers and sadly has left a well respected dealer in the middle. I think Jim and Kioti customer service may deserve each other but please leave KiotiDave out of it.

[NY_kioti_sales]

I have been following this a bit.

First off you are a year and a half out of warranty on a used and misused tractor. Thats no ones fault but your own for making that purchase.

Service bulletins do not entitle you to warranty work when you are out of warranty.

All warranty related parts are held by a dealer (not hidden as you claim) in case then need to be sent back for credit.

With that said, Kioti and Upper valley helped you anyway..... now your still kicking & screaming. Let it go.

[kiotidrive]

I am wondering why the original servicing dealer is not being blamed? If he did not fix the tractor the correct way in the first place, why blame anyone else. It clearly states that Kioti is on top of things and works hard to make any improvements as deemed necessary and it is up to the dealers to abide to that information. There are a lot of customers out there that have good complaints about a company but you have to understand that 5% of problems for 10 dealers is only about .0005% to a company. Once the company starts seeing 5 % of problems as a whole, then they will start looking into those problems that may arise from complaints. Yes, it is true that 1 dealer may have seen the problem before but it does not become a problem to Kioti until it overwhelms the entire country on every tractor. Jim, I wish you luck in your endeavor but I do think you are barking up the wrong tree. My $.02

[jim_n_nh]

I asked for the valve back and was told it was sent to Kioti, now the story changes.

I was told I should have bought from a dealer... The one that worked on it 3 times before and didn't do the updates or maybe the one that replaced the valve when it needed Orings and told me the spooling valve was sent back to Kioti?

You know, I used the backhoe for less than 2 hours before it leaked, grease was over all the fittings because the previous owner greased it before I bought it. I wasn't using the backhoe... I didn't get in my yard until the middle of November so I was going to deal with it in the spring.

Kioti doesn't have customer service, customer avoidance but not service.

Why couldn't Dave or anyone else pointed out the service bulletin? Because it proves defective design. Why replace the valves... To cover the cost??

[IslandTractor]

Originally Posted by jim_n_nh

I asked for the valve back and was told it was sent to Kioti, now the story changes.

The dealer got you a deal on the replacement valve and presumably needed to keep the old one to submit to Kioti for credit. Not misleading, just normal business practice.

I was told I should have bought from a dealer... The one that worked on it 3 times before and didn't do the updates or maybe the one that replaced the valve when it needed Orings and told me the spooling valve was sent back to Kioti?

No one needs to buy from a dealer but caveat emptor if they don't. Getting an independent assessment is not a bad idea when investing multiple thousands into a tractor that you are not qualified to judge yourself. I understand it would be a hassle to do that but that is exactly why dealers can justify charging more for the same used piece of equipment.

You know, I used the backhoe for less than 2 hours before it leaked, grease was over all the fittings because the previous owner greased it before I bought it. I wasn't using the backhoe... I didn't get in my yard until the middle of November so I was going to deal with it in the spring.

Again, the guy who sold it to you is the crook here, no one else.

Kioti doesn't have customer service, customer avoidance but not service.

Agreed. I don't think it is the customer service personnel but rather the policies they are forced to live with as set by higher management.

Why couldn't Dave or anyone else pointed out the service bulletin? Because it proves defective design. Why replace the valves... To cover the cost??

Jim, you got screwed by the seller. The lesson for everyone here is that if you are not qualified to independently assess a used tractor and implements then pay a few extra bucks and buy one from a dealer. Kioti customer service is not useful and many of us can testify to that.