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  1. #1

    Default Kioti CK20 and general Kioti questions

    Hi-

    This is my first post to tractorbynet, so please excuse any netiquette (spelling) violations by me [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    A friend of mine and I have been researching the Kioti CK20 since it came about and for at least a year now we've test driven the kubota B7500, BX22, BX2200, etc. We've also played w/ a friend's L3710 -- nice machine. We've examined the JD2210 and 4000 series and many other manufacturers in this compact / subcompact tractor arena. We've learned a lot over this time but want to know everything we can before purchasing. We've been to virtually every dealer withing a 100 mile radius for quotes and we've also gotten a lot of good advice from Steve Carver.

    On pricing of all of this, we've found Carver's to be the best hands down although I've read on here Carver has been beaten in some instances on price -- if so, who and where ?? I'd like to compare as $$$ makes a big difference. I'd still like to buy local to keep my local dealer in business, but having the out of state pricing can certainly help determine how good / realistic your deal is. Another thing may be to consider is to buy some out of state and some from the local dealer to win both ways -- i.e. get tractor and loader one way and backhoe, mower deck and tiller another -- granted the tractor is the most $$$, but backhoes and implements aren't cheap either.

    Another thing we've heard is that Kioti may have illegally acquired plans / designs for the CK20 from Kubota and Kubota may be sueing (spelling?) Kioti for the design of the CK20 in that it's really Kubota's design. This goes beyond the lawsuit for the orange color I believe. Anyone know of any truth to this? I'd hate to buy a machine I can't get parts for next year because it's discontinued due to being snuffed out by a lawsuit. I've heard that Kubota and Kioti company owners are actual blood brothers and they go back fourth on things a lot regarding lawsuits and who did what [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Anyone know of any truth to this?

    Other random questions on the CK20:

    Is there a side discharge MMM available for it?

    Does Kioti make a 3 pt mounted bagger unit PTO powered or powered by separate engine? Kubota's got this covered on the B7500 and BX22 machines. Looks like TracVAC will go on any machine (3 point mount) that has a side discharge deck w/ it's own engine to power it. This is a great setup, but I don't know for sure if Kioti makes a side discharge MMM.

    Sorry for my randomness in this post -- looking forward for any info from folks out there.

    Eric from Massachusetts.


  2. #2

    Default Re: Kioti CK20 and general Kioti questions

    <font color="blue">Another thing we've heard is that Kioti may have illegally acquired plans / designs for the CK20 from kubota and Kubota may be sueing (spelling?) Kioti for the design of the CK20 in that it's really Kubota's design.</font>

    I would say vicious rumor. If there was any validity to this statement Kubota would have an official press release and have it posted on their website.

    In fact, Kioti has two big brothers to the CK20 in the pipeline. The CK25 and the CK30. Prototypes are expected to be making their debut late this summer or early fall. The CK20 certainly appears to be a winner for Kioti. Can't wait to see the CK25/30.

    <font color="blue">Is there a side discharge MMM available for it?
    </font>
    Haven't seen one yet..... Kioti would need to come out with a side discharge mower before a 3 point bagging unit would become available.


  3. #3

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    953
    Location
    Texas
    Tractor
    Mahindra 4110

    Default Re: Kioti CK20 and general Kioti questions

    <font color="blue">Another thing we've heard is that Kioti may have illegally .... </font>

    Sounds like a bunch of Bull to me - did the person who told you this recently see Elvis too? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

    One piece of advise I took to heart a long time ago was "Always to consider the source." This rumor just doesn't add up - sounds a lot more like a scare tactic that originated with a tractor dealer who sells something other than Kioti. When someone shows me the court documents - or at least an official press release from kubota and/or Kioti, then I'll believe it.

    There's a reason heresay isn't allowed in court of law. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

  4. #4

    Default Re: Kioti CK20 and general Kioti questions

    Eric, I think that is a rumor, The ck20 has been in the works for a long time and will most likely be copied by other's. I have one, and Love it ! It's a work horse.In my research I looked at the same ones you did and also Agco and New Holland. . The ck20 won hands down in the spec department and also price. Unfortunatly they don't have a side discharge MMM. I got the 3 pt 60" and was worried about manuverabilty but found it to be perfect for my property. Good Luck in your purchase, Jim


  5. #5

    Default Re: Kioti CK20 and general Kioti questions

    On the lawsuit rumor, the source is from the owner of a Kioti dealer. Here's the kicker -- he's going to send one of the machines he has to another Kioti dealer in the area to sell the tractor and he told me he plans to keep the other machine he has! I believe he's going to get out of the Kioti business because he's "tired of dealing" w/ Kioti. A lot of what he had to say was probably somewhat subjective as I've heard way too many good things about Kioti and especially the new CK20 tractor. Other dealers I've queried about this say it's kind of silly -- they go back and fourth about things all the time (kubota and Kioti) so I'm going to sum up this as rumor and I'm hoping when production catches up the tractor will have a superior history built up and I'll get one of my own. It'll be interesting to see how Kubota might respond to this -- Kioti's got something special here.

    There's a blurb about the CK20 and a picture at the following link http://www.reco.co.uk/news.html that shows a side discharge MMM on the CK20 !!! I hope this is the real thing (picture might be a rendering) as the side discharge deck is important to me for the bagger (I'll probably use tracvac model 662 if it'll go on the CK20).

    I currently own a 2002 Toro Wheel Horse 315 w/ Kwik Way bucket loader, 42" front snow blower, 42" side MMM, and snow dozer blade. I think it's the best bang for the $$$ when it comes to the garden tractor arena (equivalent JD would cost a lot more). The loader is nice -- a superiour mulch mover, but you need help putting it on and taking it off, you can't have the MMM on and loader at the same time, and it's a bit small of a machine and can feel tipsy w/ a loaded down bucket (stone or other heavy material). Power steering will be a nice thing to have as my manual steering w/ loaded bucket can be tough. I'm also looking forward to 4wd helping to penetrate piles easier and the higher breakout force of a compact tractor to rip out small stumps and rocks.

    Getting 8 tons of crushed stone today to go play with and it's going to be a beautiful day [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    Thanks for your replies so far. Enjoy the weekend.

    -Eric

  6. #6
    Platinum Member
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    Sep 2002
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    624
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    MD
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    NH TC33D

    Default Re: Kioti CK20 and general Kioti questions

    well, the lawsuit is definitely real, here's the press release from the kubota website: LAWSUIT will anything ever come of it? only time will tell...but if i were a betting man, i'd say no

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    953
    Location
    Texas
    Tractor
    Mahindra 4110

    Default Re: Kioti CK20 and general Kioti questions

    <font color="blue">well, the lawsuit is definitely real, ... </font>

    The applicable excerpt...
    <font color="purple">The lawsuit alleges that Kioti has engaged in trade dress infringement by using kubota's distinctive orange color, and in some cases Kubota's distinctive hood design as well, on its competing models of tractors. The lawsuit further alleges that Kioti has been responsible for statements indicating a current relationship between Kubota and Kioti with respect to tractors when, in fact, no such current relationship exists. </font>

    This is the "color" lawsuit everyone’s been talking about for a while - nothing new here. A “trade dress infringement” suit “...may include features such as size, shape, color, color combinations, texture and graphics.” It has nothing to do with any mechanical design issue such as the new hydro design found on the CK20. The only additional issue mentioned in the lawsuit is an allegation of fictitious “relationship” stuff - i.e. the “blood brothers” comment, how Kioti tractors were really designed by Kubota, etc.

    In other words, the lawsuit boils down to (1) cosmetic issues, and (2) salesmen being salesmen and making up stuff to effect the sale. (I'd be curious as I don't see how Kubota could get any $$$ for that aspect of it unless there is documentation to prove Kioti corporate encouraged such behavior.)

    I won't beat a dead horse here, since both of these topics have been discussed in depth on TBN in previous posts. I stand by my earlier statement though in that I’ll believe a lawsuit regarding how Kioti “stole” Kubota’s design for a hydro transmission when I see the legal papers or a press release by either company.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Kioti CK20 and general Kioti questions

    Malk,
    Kioti has been working on cleaning up their dealer network. Maybe Kioti is dumping this dealer for some reason and you are just hearing his side of the story.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    247
    Location
    mid- Maine
    Tractor
    Century 3045

    Default Re: Kioti CK20 and general Kioti questions

    Welcome Erik,
    We own property in Saugus, MA and an old farm in Augusta, ME. I would suggest staying local with a CK 20 purchase. Nothing against Kioti, I think they make a fine machine. The CK 20 is new and IF there are any issues what are you going to do if the dealer is 1000 miles away? The advice pertains to any tractor, but especially a new model. There are places in PA and Ohio where you usually can beat Carver's prices, but if you come close locally, I think that would be the wisest choice. If my information is corect, a Kioti dealer isn't required to honor a warranty if the machine was bought elsewhere. If you can't get the deal you want on a CK20, look at another color. IMHO
    Pacesetter

  10. #10
    Platinum Member
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    624
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    Default Re: Kioti CK20 and general Kioti questions

    Regarding the warranty issue (i'm sure some of the dealers here can verify the accuracy) I believe back in April all Kioti dealers were sent a letter that states a Kioti owner can get warranty repair service from any authorized Kioti delaer, regardless of where it was purchased.
    That being said, if at all possible, you should always support your local dealer!!! There are many threads here about the merits of buying local versus buying long distance.
    In my case, buying local would have cost me almost $3000...so i drove 2 hours to buy...'nuff sed.

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