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  1. #1
    Silver Member LTEnterprises's Avatar
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    2003 Kioti 50C FEL with QA, 72" root grapple, woods ' box blade, kioti 72" tiller,18J mini excavator, 71 GMC dump truck, 4 200 cc dirt bikes, 500cc BMX XUV 4x4, 346 xp killer chain saw, 40x64x12 insulated epoxy coated floor garage

    Default 2003 Dk50C 4A200T head bolt length

    I am looking for the head bolt length for the 4a200T engine...this is the SECOND time I'm getting combustion gasses into the cooling system. Put a HG on last year ( I BELIEVE they sent me the 4a200 head gasket). Checked flatness of block and head, super cleaned and dyed head and block surface, no cracks to be seen !

    I need the bolt LENGTH because I am going to get ARP studs if I gotta pull this damned head again !! only 1015 hours on it, and ANALLY maintained !

    I found M11x1.25 TP...79.5 ft lbs torque ( 80 will be great with ARP)...tired of pulling this turbo motor apart. I just want to USE this tractor.

    Thanks in advance.
    Todays Mighty Oak is just Yesterdays NUT that held it's ground

  2. #2
    Elite Member Coyote machine's Avatar
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    May 2009
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    3,857
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    Southern VT
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    '10 Kioti DK 40se/hst KL-401 FEL, loaded tires, KB-2485 bhoe, Tuffline TB160 boxblade, Woods QA forks, MIE Hydraulic bhoe thumb & ripper tooth, Igland 4001 winch, & GR-20 Log Grapple. Woods BBX72" Mower. Diamondplate aluminum canopy.

    Default Re: 2003 Dk50C 4A200T head bolt length

    Did you magnaflux the head for cracks? The turbo aspect is what would have me concerned about combustion gases continuing to escape too. Have you done a forum search of prior posts about your model/year with turbo and head/gasket issues?
    If it were mine I'd call those dealers with years of experience with these tractors like Wallace or Michigan Iron & Equipment, and discuss it with them, and ask about the bolts too.
    If possible I'd verify what exact gasket you were sent.
    You can do a search at MIE's web pages for parts breakdown including serial numbers for gaskets/bolts superseeded parts, etc. too.
    2010 DK-40se/hst, Kioti KL-401 FEL, (with reversible Kioti cutting edge), 72" Ratchet Rake. Fit Rite Top-N-Tilt hydraulics & diverter valve. HLA Series 2000 7' snowplow, Aquiline MPC rear chains.

    Scag Wildcat: Kawasaki 26HP, with bagger system. Dr. brush mower, & 42" lawn deck, Dr. self propelled, 6.5HP Trimmer mower. Pro-Mow 3 gang mower, no HP.

    Bunch of STIHL chainsaws: 011x 2, MS192T, MS200T, MS180C, MS230, MS270 (Wood Boss), 038 Farmboss, '86 anniversary edition.

  3. #3
    Silver Member LTEnterprises's Avatar
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    2003 Kioti 50C FEL with QA, 72" root grapple, woods ' box blade, kioti 72" tiller,18J mini excavator, 71 GMC dump truck, 4 200 cc dirt bikes, 500cc BMX XUV 4x4, 346 xp killer chain saw, 40x64x12 insulated epoxy coated floor garage

    Default Re: 2003 Dk50C 4A200T head bolt length

    Thanks for the reply...I DID check the block and head for warpage. used a .002" feeler gauge and straight edge. I cleaned it VERY well, didn't use mag particles,I DID use a dye compound thats used on heads that cant be magnafluxed, and saw no cracks between valves, between combustion seal area to coolant passages, etc.

    I've got mich iron equip info and phone #, I have ALL the parts books, repair manuals too. I remember the gasket I was sent was the E6500-03312 ( they said it was an update PN...ha ha) all parts manuals and even online parts info states that the 03312 is for the 4A200...the 4A200T is SUPPOSED to have the E6500-03311...( yippee) Theres even 2 cyl head assy PN's too.

    I'm hoping that it's the gasket / bolt stretch issue. Search came up dry on the 4A200T head / gasket issues....a few other engine designs had some though...**** my old 3054 head gasket leaked...but it leaked externally.

    I'm in the process of making a compression attachment from an old glow plug. after the tank / firewall is removed, I'll put EACH cyl @ exact tdc and put 150psi air pressure in each cyl and watch for leakage @ the radiator fill neck ( have t-stat out to fill block, then fill rad....if no bubbles @ tdc ( oh my god ) then I'll take the rocker assy off and pressurize @ BDC....I PRAY I dont find bubble @ BDC if none found @ TDC !!! You know what that'd mean
    Todays Mighty Oak is just Yesterdays NUT that held it's ground

  4. #4
    Silver Member
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    Jun 2011
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    226
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    Penobscot,Me
    Tractor
    07 Kioti DK45 SE HST/401 FEL

    Default Re: 2003 Dk50C 4A200T head bolt length

    Yeah, good luck. Hopefully 150 psi won't spin the engine on you. Compression building in other cyls should stop it. But you won't be at dtc any more.
    Don
    Kioti DK45 SE HST/401 FEL, 7 ft landscape rake, 4 ft QA forks, 7' Fisher snowplow converted to QA, Satoh Bull 630D w/fel (being restored) JD 317, mower, tiller

  5. #5
    Elite Member Coyote machine's Avatar
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    May 2009
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    Southern VT
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    '10 Kioti DK 40se/hst KL-401 FEL, loaded tires, KB-2485 bhoe, Tuffline TB160 boxblade, Woods QA forks, MIE Hydraulic bhoe thumb & ripper tooth, Igland 4001 winch, & GR-20 Log Grapple. Woods BBX72" Mower. Diamondplate aluminum canopy.

    Default Re: 2003 Dk50C 4A200T head bolt length

    Quote Originally Posted by LTEnterprises View Post
    Thanks for the reply...I DID check the block and head for warpage. used a .002" feeler gauge and straight edge. I cleaned it VERY well, didn't use mag particles,I DID use a dye compound thats used on heads that cant be magnafluxed, and saw no cracks between valves, between combustion seal area to coolant passages, etc.

    I've got mich iron equip info and phone #, I have ALL the parts books, repair manuals too. I remember the gasket I was sent was the E6500-03312 ( they said it was an update PN...ha ha) all parts manuals and even online parts info states that the 03312 is for the 4A200...the 4A200T is SUPPOSED to have the E6500-03311...( yippee) Theres even 2 cyl head assy PN's too.

    I'm hoping that it's the gasket / bolt stretch issue. Search came up dry on the 4A200T head / gasket issues....a few other engine designs had some though...**** my old 3054 head gasket leaked...but it leaked externally.

    I'm in the process of making a compression attachment from an old glow plug. after the tank / firewall is removed, I'll put EACH cyl @ exact tdc and put 150psi air pressure in each cyl and watch for leakage @ the radiator fill neck ( have t-stat out to fill block, then fill rad....if no bubbles @ tdc ( oh my god ) then I'll take the rocker assy off and pressurize @ BDC....I PRAY I dont find bubble @ BDC if none found @ TDC !!! You know what that'd mean
    LTE,
    I wasn't suggesting you hadn't done a thorough check of everything; it's not known by me whether one can magnaflux those heads or not- just thought I'd ask if it was something you'd included in your process to date. I also don't know if it is recommended, or required to use new head bolts or not, but when in doubt its probably advisable to err on the side of caution. As you said- you just want it to run. Did you re-torque the existing bolts after running the engine; (again I'm not saying it's necessary or required, just curious if that is something that might make sense to include as an added precaution...?). Hopefully this is the last time you take it apart and put it together with better results than most recent attempt.
    If I understand what you said above- you think they may have given you the wrong head gasket? Not the turbo designated one? If that's true then I'd be inclined to just put her back together and hope for the best this go round- with new bolts as an added precaution. That's easy for me to say- it's not my rig- BUT wrong gasket on a turbo engine could make all the difference between success and failure.
    Keep us posted.

    CM out.
    2010 DK-40se/hst, Kioti KL-401 FEL, (with reversible Kioti cutting edge), 72" Ratchet Rake. Fit Rite Top-N-Tilt hydraulics & diverter valve. HLA Series 2000 7' snowplow, Aquiline MPC rear chains.

    Scag Wildcat: Kawasaki 26HP, with bagger system. Dr. brush mower, & 42" lawn deck, Dr. self propelled, 6.5HP Trimmer mower. Pro-Mow 3 gang mower, no HP.

    Bunch of STIHL chainsaws: 011x 2, MS192T, MS200T, MS180C, MS230, MS270 (Wood Boss), 038 Farmboss, '86 anniversary edition.

  6. #6
    Silver Member LTEnterprises's Avatar
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    2003 Kioti 50C FEL with QA, 72" root grapple, woods ' box blade, kioti 72" tiller,18J mini excavator, 71 GMC dump truck, 4 200 cc dirt bikes, 500cc BMX XUV 4x4, 346 xp killer chain saw, 40x64x12 insulated epoxy coated floor garage

    Default Re: 2003 Dk50C 4A200T head bolt length

    I did the air pressure checks this saturday, I brought each cyl up to tdc, you can find exact tdc by applying some pressure, if the crank begins to rotate one way, pull it the opposite way until no movement happens with the valve train still intact. I had NOTHING leaking into the cooling system, with the valve train working.Still no bubbles in the radiator( maybe 150 PSI isn't as high as combustion...well I certainly wouldn't think so VBSEG ) I pulled the rocker shaft assy, put 150 psi in each cyl, and I had AIR LEAKING into the intake manifold on #3, but STILL nothing in the cooling system ??

    now I got confused, no leak with valve train working ( maybe I didn't hear it ?) and air leaking WO valve train connected ?? Pulled head, I can see where combustion was leaking @ #3 and #4 by witness marks on the gasket, but the sealing ring including the pre combustion chamber steel ( part of the compression ring on the head gasket) were not breached.

    I flipped the head business side facing up @ me, and noticed the pre combustion chamber inserts are very slightly higher than the cylinder sealing area !!??

    The head bolts measure 11MM x 1.25 TP and 3.559" from bottom of made on washer to end of bolt, and 4.030 total length from top of hex head to end.

    This is where I stand...for now, gonna do some homework on the pre combustion chamber insert removal, if pressed in, will have head milled JUST ENOUGH to get everything flat.

    sorry, I havent measured the pre comb insert height from head surface yet...was/am pretty sore from takin all that stuff off a cab tractor.

    I'll HAVE TO take pics while it's all apart....was too frustrated to even THINK, especially being this is the SECOND TIME tearing this head off !!(1015 hours as of now) I just HATE doing things like that even ONCE...much LESS TWICE !!
    Last edited by LTEnterprises; 12-10-2012 at 07:56 AM. Reason: miss spelling
    Todays Mighty Oak is just Yesterdays NUT that held it's ground

  7. #7
    Elite Member Coyote machine's Avatar
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    '10 Kioti DK 40se/hst KL-401 FEL, loaded tires, KB-2485 bhoe, Tuffline TB160 boxblade, Woods QA forks, MIE Hydraulic bhoe thumb & ripper tooth, Igland 4001 winch, & GR-20 Log Grapple. Woods BBX72" Mower. Diamondplate aluminum canopy.

    Default Re: 2003 Dk50C 4A200T head bolt length

    Wow, what a nightmare! Sounds like you're making progress- maybe, by having found some things that don't look quite right.
    Do you know how much you can shave before the head becomes an anchor?
    Are you thinking the head bolts, (stretching?) combined with the pre-combustion chamber inserts issue is causing exhaust bubbles in the coolant?
    Did you remove the hood to get better access to the head/engine?
    Pics would be great!
    2010 DK-40se/hst, Kioti KL-401 FEL, (with reversible Kioti cutting edge), 72" Ratchet Rake. Fit Rite Top-N-Tilt hydraulics & diverter valve. HLA Series 2000 7' snowplow, Aquiline MPC rear chains.

    Scag Wildcat: Kawasaki 26HP, with bagger system. Dr. brush mower, & 42" lawn deck, Dr. self propelled, 6.5HP Trimmer mower. Pro-Mow 3 gang mower, no HP.

    Bunch of STIHL chainsaws: 011x 2, MS192T, MS200T, MS180C, MS230, MS270 (Wood Boss), 038 Farmboss, '86 anniversary edition.

  8. #8
    Platinum Member ritcheyvs's Avatar
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    Kittrell, NC
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    Kioti DK45S

    Default Re: 2003 Dk50C 4A200T head bolt length

    Quote Originally Posted by LTEnterprises View Post
    ...maybe 150 PSI isn't as high as combustion...well I certainly wouldn't think so
    As a point of reference, I see 400-450 psi in my (relatively healthy 30 year old) Diesel car in a compression test spinning the motor with the starter. Combustion pressure is considerably higher, maybe 2500 psi.
    Scott
    Kioti DK45S, KL451 loader, Howse 601S cutter, Phoenix M72S mower

  9. #9
    Silver Member LTEnterprises's Avatar
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    2003 Kioti 50C FEL with QA, 72" root grapple, woods ' box blade, kioti 72" tiller,18J mini excavator, 71 GMC dump truck, 4 200 cc dirt bikes, 500cc BMX XUV 4x4, 346 xp killer chain saw, 40x64x12 insulated epoxy coated floor garage

    Default Re: 2003 Dk50C 4A200T head bolt length

    2500 psi combustion pressure is probably close...VBG...thats why no bubble with 150...LOL

    I'm gonna take some pics tonight when I get home from my 4 letter word. I think the ONLY THING that would be worse, would be a clutch install, or an engine block ( bout the same really)...the firewall / fuel tank with ALL of the "controllers" and relays are behind the engine, and the tank/firewall sweeps forward over the rear of the engine...will upload pics tomorrow am....I hope ...that 4 letter word thing seems to get in my way A LOT !!! Can't get ANYTHING important done... LOL
    Todays Mighty Oak is just Yesterdays NUT that held it's ground

  10. #10
    Gold Member GMtb42's Avatar
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    Reno, Texas
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    SOLD L2800DT-F, purchased Kioti CK20 HST

    Default Re: 2003 Dk50C 4A200T head bolt length

    In my years of doing motor work several things come to mind as important on cylinder head installs, TORQUE PATTERN and TORQUE SPECS. Clean everything as clean as possible, take a old head bolt grind a slit in it and use it as a run through or better yet a tap if you have one, clean, clean, clean, surfaces and threads.
    In automotive now head bolts are one time torque, disposable bolts, as you said they stretch, your idea of the studs is a good one, they will withstand more torque and reuse for sure.
    Could you see the spot on the gasket where it was leaking by? Usually you can see the erosion where it was leaking at.

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