NX4510 - NX6010 motors

[GregP27]

Safe to say all modern engines are LEANED OUT.

I used to have a 1979 Chevy with a 305 in it. Bought it with a 3-on-the-tree and went to a Camaro 4-speed I found in the Arizona desert and had rebuilt at a transmission shop. I started out with a 2-barrel carb and went to a 4-barrel I got off a 305 boat engine. In order to pass emissions I'd have to get in line at the enission check, let the engine run, and crank it down until it was at the settings the engine shop gave me (took my screw settingsn and then had it tuned up for emissions ... and checked the settings they used). I'd run the test, pass, and then pull to the door and set it back to where I wanted it. The guys there was livid and said it smelled edit: rich. My answer was, "Yeah, right where it likes to run!"

The sweet setting was always at least a turn or more richer than the emissions setting everywhere, and the engine LOVED it. Much less stuttering and sputtering when colder or right after startup. Miss that old truck; ran great for an old 305. The guy who bought it threw away the 305 and oput in a 383 stroker (the best engine Chevy never made). It was basically a 350 with a 400 crankshaft. Let's see, you start with a 350 block, bore .030 over, and use a stroker crank that happens to be very close ... but not quite the exact same, as an old 400 crankshaft.

Anyway, the Ted deisel video tells me there's a lot more left in the emission deisels than we think! But, I'd not mess with the new warranty, either, since new warranty is your protection for having a running tractor ... until it is used up, anyway. After that, it's on YOU.

In 1980's small aircfraft engines, I used to run 50° rich of peak. Some guys were running 50° lean of peak. I didn't know any who made it to TBO (time between overahuls) without issues, but that came later. Today, MANY small aircraft engines are designed to run lean of peak. I'm just not comfortable running there and would elect to use the slight extra fuel burn to save the VERY expensive engine.

Good luck, JimR!

Might need wheelie bars atfer messing with it! You never know, do you? I wonder how much extra tire wear you'll get with 15 more HP?

I guess it depends on the type of ground you run on, the loads you normally push that generate wheelspin, and how long YOU let them spin before stopping. Don't mind me, just rambling ... so I'll shut up now!

 

[JimR]

Safe to say all modern engines are LEANED OUT.

I used to have a 1979 Chevy with a 305 in it. Bought it with a 3-on-the-tree and went to a Camaro 4-speed I found in the Arizona desert and had rebuilt at a transmission shop. I started out with a 2-barrel carb and went to a 4-barrel I got off a 305 boat engine. In order to pass emissions I'd have to get in line at the enission check, let the engine run, and crank it down until it was at the settings the engine shop gave me (took my screw settingsn and then had it tuned up for emissions ... and checked the settings they used). I'd run the test, pass, and then pull to the door and set it back to where I wanted it. The guys there was livid and said it smelled lean. My answer was, "Yeah, right where it likes to run!"

The sweet setting was always at least a turn or more richer than the emissions setting everywhere, and the engine LOVED it. Much less stuttering and sputtering when colder or right after startup. Miss that old truck; ran great for an old 305. The guy who bought it threw away the 305 and oput in a 383 stroker (the best engine Chevy never made). It was basically a 350 with a 400 crankshaft. Let's see, you start with a 350 block, bore .030 over, and use a stroker crank that happens to be very close ... but not quite the exact same, as an old 400 crankshaft.

Anyway, the Ted deisel video tells me there's a lot more left in the emission deisels than we think! But, I'd not mess with the new warranty, either, since new warranty is your protection for having a running tractor ... until it is used up, anyway. After that, it's on YOU.

In 1980's small aircfraft engines, I used to run 50ｰ rich of peak. Some guys were running 50ｰ lean of peak. I didn't know any who made it to TBO (time between overahuls) without issues, but that came later. Today, MANY small aircraft engines are designed to run lean of peak. I'm just not comfortable running there and would elect to use the slight extra fuel burn to save the VERY expensive engine.

Good luck, JimR!

Might need wheelie bars atfer messing with it! You never know, do you? I wonder how much extra tire wear you'll get with 15 more HP?

I guess it depends on the type of ground you run on, the loads you normally push that generate wheelspin, and how long YOU let them spin before stopping. Don't mind me, just rambling ... so I'll shut up now!

Lean burning gas motor can cause the cylinders to run hotter which can lead to piston meltdown. I agree with your thinking about running richer.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Here's some background:

The "older: like CK and DK models (including SE) used a Bosch-style inline injection pump, sometimes called a jerk pump. With this arrangement, a gear-driven cam in the block drove the injection pump (IP) plungers (one per cylinder) up and down to deliver fuel to the injectors. The IP delivered a pulse of high pressure fuel to each injector which "popped" at about 2,000 psi spraying atomized fuel into the prechamber. The start of fuel delivery was fixed at about 18 degrees BTDC by the IP gasket thickness. Fuel delivery duration/quantity is controlled by the "rack" which is positioned by throttle springs acting against the centrifugal governor during normal operation. The stop solenoid (and external stop lever) forces the rack full aft, which is the zero-fuel position, to stop the engine. A set screw limits the maximum forward travel (max fuel limit) of the rack and this is the adjustment some have discussed here. If "too much" fuel is injected (for the available air) the exhaust will show black smoke (soot), which is wasted fuel.

Tier 4 NX engines are quite different. These 3-cylinder engines are turbo charged to put more air into the cylinders. A high pressure (like 25,000 psi) fuel pump delivers fuel continuously to all injectors via a "common rail" manifold. The injectors (timing and duration) are operated electrically by the engine computer, which also controls turbo boost air and fuel feed pressure (among other things). Essentially everything is controlled by the engine computer software. So I really don't see how any mechanical adjustment or shim would increase power except (maybe) by tricking the sensors. But tricking sensors may be "caught" by the computer and put the engine in a "limp home" or some other self-protect mode; that is a guess but it's what automotive engine computers do.

 

[DieselBound]

Yup, you have to have software modified in order to understand any physical modifications.

My VW TDI ALH engines use a VE pump (pre Pump Duise, which is pre Common Rail). Turbos work really well because they're direct injection: turbos don't really do anything for indirect injection (IDI).

 

[JimR]

Here's some background:

The "older: like CK and DK models (including SE) used a Bosch-style inline injection pump, sometimes called a jerk pump. With this arrangement, a gear-driven cam in the block drove the injection pump (IP) plungers (one per cylinder) up and down to deliver fuel to the injectors. The IP delivered a pulse of high pressure fuel to each injector which "popped" at about 2,000 psi spraying atomized fuel into the prechamber. The start of fuel delivery was fixed at about 18 degrees BTDC by the IP gasket thickness. Fuel delivery duration/quantity is controlled by the "rack" which is positioned by throttle springs acting against the centrifugal governor during normal operation. The stop solenoid (and external stop lever) forces the rack full aft, which is the zero-fuel position, to stop the engine. A set screw limits the maximum forward travel (max fuel limit) of the rack and this is the adjustment some have discussed here. If "too much" fuel is injected (for the available air) the exhaust will show black smoke (soot), which is wasted fuel.

Tier 4 NX engines are quite different. These 3-cylinder engines are turbo charged to put more air into the cylinders. A high pressure (like 25,000 psi) fuel pump delivers fuel continuously to all injectors via a "common rail" manifold. The injectors (timing and duration) are operated electrically by the engine computer, which also controls turbo boost air and fuel feed pressure (among other things). Essentially everything is controlled by the engine computer software. So I really don't see how any mechanical adjustment or shim would increase power except (maybe) by tricking the sensors. But tricking sensors may be "caught" by the computer and put the engine in a "limp home" or some other self-protect mode; that is a guess but it's what automotive engine computers do.

All good info for sure. I too think that it is being done through the computer, except that the 60HP uses a different injection pump. The ECM's are both the same on the 45 and 60HP tractor. I guess they could use the same ECM and just program them separately. I'll check and see if the 50 and 55hp pumps are the same. Interesting thing is that the 50 and 55hp motors list both the 45hp and 60hp part number for the injection pump. Crazy, unless they had a change to the 60hp pump recently.

 

[GregP27]

I was thinking of adding a 2-pound resitriction (regulator) in front of the pressure the regular regulator (say THAT 3 times really fast!) sees. It should not be "caught" by the engine computer at all. If it did happen to be caught, just remove the new restriction and solve the problem.

It could be calibrated easily. Put 20 psi of air into it and adjust until you get 18 psi out. Then bolt it in and see what happens. You SHOULD get an extra 2 pounds of boost and run just fine. If not, remove it and go back to stock configuration.

As it happens, I don't HAVE a tractor right now. When that changes, I'll probably try it if the tractor I get is a turbo. It would take a bit of plumbing, but the stock componentrs would also be saved and would go right back on easily enough.

 

[comancheflight]

Safe to say all modern engines are LEANED OUT.

I used to have a 1979 Chevy with a 305 in it. Bought it with a 3-on-the-tree and went to a Camaro 4-speed I found in the Arizona desert and had rebuilt at a transmission shop. I started out with a 2-barrel carb and went to a 4-barrel I got off a 305 boat engine. In order to pass emissions I'd have to get in line at the enission check, let the engine run, and crank it down until it was at the settings the engine shop gave me (took my screw settingsn and then had it tuned up for emissions ... and checked the settings they used). I'd run the test, pass, and then pull to the door and set it back to where I wanted it. The guys there was livid and said it smelled edit: rich. My answer was, "Yeah, right where it likes to run!"

The sweet setting was always at least a turn or more richer than the emissions setting everywhere, and the engine LOVED it. Much less stuttering and sputtering when colder or right after startup. Miss that old truck; ran great for an old 305. The guy who bought it threw away the 305 and oput in a 383 stroker (the best engine Chevy never made). It was basically a 350 with a 400 crankshaft. Let's see, you start with a 350 block, bore .030 over, and use a stroker crank that happens to be very close ... but not quite the exact same, as an old 400 crankshaft.

Anyway, the Ted deisel video tells me there's a lot more left in the emission deisels than we think! But, I'd not mess with the new warranty, either, since new warranty is your protection for having a running tractor ... until it is used up, anyway. After that, it's on YOU.

In 1980's small aircfraft engines, I used to run 50ｰ rich of peak. Some guys were running 50ｰ lean of peak. I didn't know any who made it to TBO (time between overahuls) without issues, but that came later. Today, MANY small aircraft engines are designed to run lean of peak. I'm just not comfortable running there and would elect to use the slight extra fuel burn to save the VERY expensive engine.

Good luck, JimR!

Might need wheelie bars atfer messing with it! You never know, do you? I wonder how much extra tire wear you'll get with 15 more HP?

I guess it depends on the type of ground you run on, the loads you normally push that generate wheelspin, and how long YOU let them spin before stopping. Don't mind me, just rambling ... so I'll shut up now!

Aircraft engine when leaned get hotter and is how you set fuel burn. BUT Lean of Peak (LOP) runs COOLER, not hotter. And it IS much easier on the engine. I did testing on a Comanche 250 with the help of John Deakin (read his articles on AvWeb)...so no it will NOT cause engine damage but rather the opposite. At the time i knew of no pilots who did it because the assumption that it would 'meltdown' their engine. Most are fearful of running LOP because they don't understand it and its on the verge of engine shutdown in flight. Plus you have to quickly go through the red box to keep the engine out of thermal danger. Done properly it's easy to do and pretty amazIng how the engine temp drops, gets smooth and quiet...but not much horsepower developed. Fuel consumption drops dramatically.

Commercial pilot, CFII, AGI, IGI3o

 

[GregP27]

I've seen a lot of those run-lean engines not make it to TBO (I even helped replace a couple of Continentals in Cessna 180s), but maybe that's better left for an aviation forum?

As for the turbo Kioti, I'm not very sure software can catch a 2 psi restriction that is not wired into it in any way. I suppose a member will have to let us know, should they try it out. Might be easier to "turn up the fuel," like in Ted's video. But, that might not be a common rail engine. I didn't check it out myself as I'm not currently in the market.

We sure had a good time running junkyard Subaru turbos on our bridgeported Mazda 13B wankels, though! We got an easy 250 HP from them ... in a very narrow powerband. Had a LOT better luck running 2 junkyard Subaru rebuilt turbos on a Toyota Camry V6! Got 300 HP easily. None of those engines were particularly expensive like a Kioti deisel is, though, and I'd most likely talk to a deisel expert before cooking one accidentally.

Thing is, the guy above is only after another 15 HP, and that should NOT be difficult. Look what Banks does with them in pickups! They get a LOT of extra HP. 15 HP should be a breeze, by comparison and, since it is sold rated for that amount in the 60HP Kioti, it won't put undue stress on the main bearings or other components, either. SOMEBODY should know how to do that one easily.

When I get my tractor, I won't want to "hot rod" it, but if I think it is a bit weak, I won't have any trouble checking out the power output just to get a baseline for my own consideration. Whatever equipment you operate, you ALWAYS want something with a bit more, eventually. But, if you are getting what you are supposed to get for power, then use it as-is or upgrade it before you ruin it by rendering it capable of damaging itself in normal operation.

No sense in breaking it just because you can't leave well enough alone. I already learned that one myself and paid for the parts! If they're cheap parts, no problem. If it's a high-$$ deisel in a new tractor, I'll think about it seriously before causing damage that will likely NOT be under warranty.

Cheers!

Hey ComancheFlight! Do you like your NX? Had any issues? How many hours? How about an NX review from an owner? You know, likes and dislikes ... the stuff you might do differently, knowing what you know now. Are you up for a short typing session?

 

[JimR]

I've seen a lot of those run-lean engines not make it to TBO (I even helped replace a couple of Continentals in Cessna 180s), but maybe that's better left for an aviation forum?

As for the turbo Kioti, I'm not very sure software can catch a 2 psi restriction that is not wired into it in any way. I suppose a member will have to let us know, should they try it out. Might be easier to "turn up the fuel," like in Ted's video. But, that might not be a common rail engine. I didn't check it out myself as I'm not currently in the market.

We sure had a good time running junkyard Subaru turbos on our bridgeported Mazda 13B wankels, though! We got an easy 250 HP from them ... in a very narrow powerband. Had a LOT better luck running 2 junkyard Subaru rebuilt turbos on a Toyota Camry V6! Got 300 HP easily. None of those engines were particularly expensive like a Kioti deisel is, though, and I'd most likely talk to a deisel expert before cooking one accidentally.

Thing is, the guy above is only after another 15 HP, and that should NOT be difficult. Look what Banks does with them in pickups! They get a LOT of extra HP. 15 HP should be a breeze, by comparison and, since it is sold rated for that amount in the 60HP Kioti, it won't put undue stress on the main bearings or other components, either. SOMEBODY should know how to do that one easily.

When I get my tractor, I won't want to "hot rod" it, but if I think it is a bit weak, I won't have any trouble checking out the power output just to get a baseline for my own consideration. Whatever equipment you operate, you ALWAYS want something with a bit more, eventually. But, if you are getting what you are supposed to get for power, then use it as-is or upgrade it before you ruin it by rendering it capable of damaging itself in normal operation.

No sense in breaking it just because you can't leave well enough alone. I already learned that one myself and paid for the parts! If they're cheap parts, no problem. If it's a high-$$ deisel in a new tractor, I'll think about it seriously before causing damage that will likely NOT be under warranty.

Cheers!

Hey ComancheFlight! Do you like your NX? Had any issues? How many hours? How about an NX review from an owner? You know, likes and dislikes ... the stuff you might do differently, knowing what you know now. Are you up for a short typing session?

You are right just like the other guys about a slight tweak on the turbo to boost up the HP. I'll post in 6 years what I find out or do to get the 60HP out of this tractor. The New Holland injector pump is different than the one on the Kioti. It has a simple set screw adjustment for fuel enrichment. I wish the Kioti had that same setup.

 

[comancheflight]

I've seen a lot of those run-lean engines not make it to TBO (I even helped replace a couple of Continentals in Cessna 180s), but maybe that's better left for an aviation forum?

As for the turbo Kioti, I'm not very sure software can catch a 2 psi restriction that is not wired into it in any way. I suppose a member will have to let us know, should they try it out. Might be easier to "turn up the fuel," like in Ted's video. But, that might not be a common rail engine. I didn't check it out myself as I'm not currently in the market.

We sure had a good time running junkyard Subaru turbos on our bridgeported Mazda 13B wankels, though! We got an easy 250 HP from them ... in a very narrow powerband. Had a LOT better luck running 2 junkyard Subaru rebuilt turbos on a Toyota Camry V6! Got 300 HP easily. None of those engines were particularly expensive like a Kioti deisel is, though, and I'd most likely talk to a deisel expert before cooking one accidentally.

Thing is, the guy above is only after another 15 HP, and that should NOT be difficult. Look what Banks does with them in pickups! They get a LOT of extra HP. 15 HP should be a breeze, by comparison and, since it is sold rated for that amount in the 60HP Kioti, it won't put undue stress on the main bearings or other components, either. SOMEBODY should know how to do that one easily.

When I get my tractor, I won't want to "hot rod" it, but if I think it is a bit weak, I won't have any trouble checking out the power output just to get a baseline for my own consideration. Whatever equipment you operate, you ALWAYS want something with a bit more, eventually. But, if you are getting what you are supposed to get for power, then use it as-is or upgrade it before you ruin it by rendering it capable of damaging itself in normal operation.

No sense in breaking it just because you can't leave well enough alone. I already learned that one myself and paid for the parts! If they're cheap parts, no problem. If it's a high-$$ deisel in a new tractor, I'll think about it seriously before causing damage that will likely NOT be under warranty.

Cheers!

Hey ComancheFlight! Do you like your NX? Had any issues? How many hours? How about an NX review from an owner? You know, likes and dislikes ... the stuff you might do differently, knowing what you know now. Are you up for a short typing session?

I love my NX. Not sure of anything I would do different as yet. I have around 80 hours on it mostly using backhoe, loader and box blade. Did recently buy a landscape rake to assist removing branches around the lake and it's pretty sweet. The NX I have had zero issues with it.
To date it hasn't had a regeneration (that I know of) but I winter block heat and always run at a minimum of 2K rpm.