MIE 3rd Function Kit

[xcgreene]

What this is describing is commonly known as a Diverter Valve. When you press the 1 button on the control grip it diverts one current function (typically the Curl/Dump function) into a 3rd set of outlets to run the 3rd function - in your case the grapple lid.

Pro's of this system is you get full proportional control via the curl/dump valve on your loader control. Con's - you can't curl/dump and open/close the grapple lid (or whatever else) at the same time.



EA simply resells the W.R. Long 3rd function kit. This kit IS a true 3rd function in as much as it will operate independently of the other loader functions (with one proviso that you have discovered, more on this in a moment). In place of a diverter valve it uses a true bi-directional solenoid valve. You have 2 buttons on the control grip to actuate the solenoid in either direction

Pro's it is operated independent of the loaders other functions ** Con's - it is NOT proportional. It is indeed On or Off in either direction you choose.

Thus far in my usage on a grapple I have found absolutely no time where this has been an issue. If you're using your 3rd function on a snow plow / blower where finer / slower control might be needed then I could see where it's a problem.

** Now back to why on most SCUT's / CUT's you can't really operate your 3rd function at the same time.
First - a very basic understanding of how the hydraulic fluid flows through your system is needed.

Tank -> Pump -> Power Steering (if not fed from a separate pump/output) -> Loader Valve (Lift/Lower function then Dump/Curl function then out the Power Beyond Port) -> Rear Remotes (SCV's) if present -> 3 Point Lift -> back to the Tank

Now what happens is as fluid is passing thru the loader valve body it gets used for Lift/Lower then if any flow isn't being used there, it goes to Curl/Dump, anything left after that leaves the loader valve as "Power Beyond" which then becomes the pressure in on your 3rd function valve.

What happens in the real world is that the GPM flow on these pumps are so low that when 1 function is in heavy / full use or 2 functions are in partial use then there is not enough flow capacity left to power the remaining function. Also due to how the loader valve is made it's always priority to Lift/Lower then Curl/Dump and then out the PB to the 3rd function.

If you want to try an experiment at home put your loader down on the ground and then try to dump the bucket while lifting the loader. Most likely you will find that if you're pulling back hard on the stick and raising the loader quickly, the dumping action stops. That's because the Lift function is using all the available flow. If you pull back gently and only part way you can slowly both lift & dump.

The same thing should happen if you try to curl/dump and open/close the grapple without lifting/lowering.


On larger tractors and construction grade equipment you have 2 factors that allow for full operation of all 3 functions simultaneously.
1) The hydraulic system flow capacity is much greater
2) The valve body (bodies) are designed to allow for a portion of the incoming flow to pass through the valve, regardless of it's operation, to be used downstream by the next valve.

This type of valve body (or something similar in function) is what MIE is talking about offering in their new system and I'm pretty curious to see it in action myself.

I suppose my real frustration here, is that Everything Attachments advertised their kits (WR Longs) explaning
"This is a full 3rd function kit allowing you to raise/lower, dump/curl, and open/close at the same time."

There was no reason, at the time, for me to believe this kit wasn't exactly what Everything Attachments advertised it to be. So I simply purchased it, and installed it, to find that I actually can NOT raise/lower, dump/curl, and open/close at the same time. I cannot use the 3rd function, if I am using any other function. I understand why, now, having been through the system of the DK45se hst, but surely Everything Attachments and WR Long, knew this, as each kit is fitted for each model tractor. The fact that this kit, installed in my tractor, would not behave as they advertised, should have been disclosed.

N2DFire, thats a great write up on the operations of 3rd functions. Had I stumbled over it a few months back, I would have been more cautious.

 

[LD1]

N2DFire summed it up pretty well. Not much left to add.

xcgreene.....if the description that MIE gave you initially.....is the same kit they still sell......that in itself is misleading as the description is indeed a diverter.

A diverter allows you to use two functions just as easily as you can raise/lower AND dump/curl at the same time. AND it allows feathering since you are still using your loader valve. Just redirecting the flow from one of its functions.

On my loader, I chose diverter and tied to the lift/lower. So I cannot work my grapple or angle my snowplow while lifting or lowering. One at a time.
But I CAN curl/dump at the same time as angle or open/closing grapple.

True third functions are always touted as such. And Ive been guilty of repeating that as well, all though I have always had my doubts. Since normally one of these solenoids and D03 plate dont have a PB port. Rather a pressure rated tank port.

So with the 3rd valve AHEAD of the loader, any time it is actuated....the ONLY flow you have to the rest of the system is only what comes out the tank port. And the only oil that comes out the tank port is the oil being expelled from the opposite end of the grapple cylinder. Normally this should still be sufficient to allow other functions to work.

At the end of the day, your tractor only has so much flow. As N2D. And on tractors, the flow is usually relatively small compared to the size of the machine.

A new valve with priority flow and true PB sounds nice. And I am sure you will truly be able to do all 3 things at once, but at a cost of speed. And it certainly dont sound like a cheap valve. If one has a little hydraulic knowledge and can put together the parts themself and make a few brackets....you can do a diverter for $300-$350 and a 3rd function for a little more.

With all this proprietary stuff and complexity of this new valve, I'd imagine this is gonna be a $1200-$1500 kit

 

[MichiganIron]

Please allow us to clarify. The new kit described in our post yesterday is a "true 3rd Function Kit". It is not a "diverter, or more properly a "selector" kit. The "new" kit we described is a 3rd function system allowing proportional control of all three functions at the same time. The valve body is equipped to provide Power-Beyond at all times, regardless of how many of the 3 functions are used at the same time.

Our present kits are "Electric Selector" operated kits, which some refer to as "diverter" system. A diverter valve is techincally a different type of valve, but gets used often to describe our Electic Selector system. The Selector system works well and offers the features of feathering all 3 controls and continous Power Beyond, but only allows the use of 2 features at the same time. The new system will not be a selector or diverter system. The new valve block will contain the extra valve cartridge of allow continous Power Beyond, along with the full time proportional control of the 3rd function (3 functions at the same time). There isn't a valve on the market that allows this, so we developed our own.

Hope this helps

 

[xcgreene]

Please allow us to clarify. The new kit described in our post yesterday is a "true 3rd Function Kit". It is not a "diverter, or more properly a "selector" kit. The "new" kit we described is a 3rd function system allowing proportional control of all three functions at the same time. The valve body is equipped to provide Power-Beyond at all times, regardless of how many of the 3 functions are used at the same time.

Our present kits are "Electric Selector" operated kits, which some refer to as "diverter" system. A diverter valve is techincally a different type of valve, but gets used often to describe our Electic Selector system. The Selector system works well and offers the features of feathering all 3 controls and continous Power Beyond, but only allows the use of 2 features at the same time. The new system will not be a selector or diverter system. The new valve block will contain the extra valve cartridge of allow continous Power Beyond, along with the full time proportional control of the 3rd function (3 functions at the same time). There isn't a valve on the market that allows this, so we developed our own.

Hope this helps

Will this new kit allow the Kioti NX and DKse tractors to curl , lift, and close at the same time, like a proper 3rd function? What will this Kit cost?

 

[MichiganIron]

This new kit we first be developed for the current KIOTI Models. Our kits are classified by Front Loader Model, but will be for the:

CK10
CK10SE
DK10
NX
RX

After the current model tractor/loaders are kitted complete, we will go back to the discontinued models based on demand.

Our "new" kit is:

Third Function - "true"
Proportional (feathering) Control on all 3 functions at the same time
Continous Power Beyond for follow-on Hydraulic Functions
Complete custom kits for each Tractor/Loader Model

Our current Kits are:

Third Function - "selected" (only 2 active at a time)
Proportional (feathering) Control on all 3 functions
Continous Power Beyond for follow-on Hydraulic Functions
Complete custom kits for each Tractor/Loader Model
Available for current and non-current Tractor/Loader Models


We have not yet established our final cost. We will publish this information to the MIE Machinery Gruop website once the valve manufacturing is complete. We waited to develop this kit because we never really saw a reason to have to run all three functions at the same time. But, customers ask for it, so we want to be able to respond, but respond with a properly designed circuit.

Thank you for your interest.

 

[LD1]

You are confusing everyone in the tractor world when you STILL refer to your current kit as a 3rd function.

And for those of us like myself that dont have much hydraulic experience, could you please elaborate when you say
"a "diverter, or more properly a "selector" kit"
and
""Electric Selector" operated kits, which some refer to as "diverter" system. A diverter valve is techincally a different type of valve"

 

[MichiganIron]

A diverter valve is used to split one POWER source into 2 or more metered POWER flows. The selector valve "switches" 2 WORK PORTS into 4 WORK PORTS, or 2 controlled circuits. The diverter valve is generally used on a power source, the selector valve is used to select between work ports. Our current kit is a selector valve, which the operator selects which work ports he wants by the push of a button, or trigger, depending on the handle style. We have used selector valve on our current kits. Because they are only selecting which work ports are active, the tractor Power Beyond System is not interrupted with the valve. Some other kits on the market use the Power Beyond off the existing Joystick Valve with an on-off dual solenoid selector valve. In that system, when it's "on", the hydraulic flow through the power beyond is interrupted.

 

[hillwood]

This new kit we first be developed for the current KIOTI Models. Our kits are classified by Front Loader Model, but will be for the:

CK10
CK10SE
DK10
NX
RX

After the current model tractor/loaders are kitted complete, we will go back to the discontinued models based on demand.

Our "new" kit is:

Third Function - "true"
Proportional (feathering) Control on all 3 functions at the same time
Continous Power Beyond for follow-on Hydraulic Functions
Complete custom kits for each Tractor/Loader Model

Our current Kits are:

Third Function - "selected" (only 2 active at a time)
Proportional (feathering) Control on all 3 functions
Continous Power Beyond for follow-on Hydraulic Functions
Complete custom kits for each Tractor/Loader Model
Available for current and non-current Tractor/Loader Models


We have not yet established our final cost. We will publish this information to the MIE Machinery Gruop website once the valve manufacturing is complete. We waited to develop this kit because we never really saw a reason to have to run all three functions at the same time. But, customers ask for it, so we want to be able to respond, but respond with a properly designed circuit.

Thank you for your interest.

I'm interested in the (new kit) that you are doing. When will they be able?
It would be great if you could put together a video and or pictures of the new system on a tractor for all to see.
I'm going to put a 3rd function on my tractor.
Your system sounds like the one I want.

 

[the old grind]

I'm not confused yet. As I understand it, MIE's new ('combo'?) valve includes a priority flow divider that allows the third function to operate without simply diverting the main flow path. This seems to be the crux of discussions and disagreements about diverters vs 'true' third function.

This also becomes somewhat like a closed center system in that two (sub)circuits can work simultaneously and smoothly (in parallel) .. if always limited by system gpm.

I have a basic diverter setup installed on my NH's FEL by MIE a few years ago and couldn't be more satisfied with the quality of work done and how it performs. Of course I also have a Hound Dog grapple with which I'd expect to bend a loader arm before hurting the attachment. (tested) .. And I have moments of 'whatever' (cranial vacuum) thus working curl and close erratically back and forth all herky-jerky laughing::laughing::laughing, even having rotated the switch 3, 12, 9 o'clock trying to learn/operate it all smoothly. :confused2:

What MIE/Bob is offering is 'what we want' and what we expect when seeking a "third function," so I suggest staying tuned till confusion abates. btw, the new website and emergence of MIE's 'Machinery Division' are also 'what we want' if you hadn't noticed.

You just wait, guys. Someday I'll have a Kioti, too.

 

[LD1]

Yes, from their description it does indeed sound like they are using a priority divider of some kind.

IMO, third function kits as they currently are, offer no advantage over a diverter. Most tractors simply don't flow enough to actually use 3 functions. And the way solenoid valve are, lacking a power beyond but having a pressure rated tank passage, any flow beyond the grapple, if the grapple is activated, must first flow to/from the grapple.

The results would be similar to putting a tee in an open center system. In that if you try to actually do 3 functions, the one with the least resistance is going to operate first/fastest. Until it hits resistance greater than the other functions.

Most modern tractors now use 2 pumps, but older ones, or even modern ones that don't (open center of course) use a priority divider for steering. You wouldn't want to loose your steering Everytime you operated the 3ph or loader. And wouldn't want the loader or 3ph to stop working Everytime you turned the wheel.

Priority divider are nothing new. And what MIE is doing can be done already, but with more hardware and plumbing.

What MIE is doing differently is putting everything in the same manifold making it an all in one unit.

If they have it engineered right, it should preform as expected