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  1. #1
    Bronze Member
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    May 2008
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    73

    Default tractor pricing vs engine size

    In general you see a series of tractors with different model #'s same displacement,same weight but just different HP ratings.What are they doing to the non-turbo'ed engines to tweak the HP ? Changing injectors and pump settings? It would seem easier on the wallet to buy the lower HP tractor within a series and wait till the warranty is over and tractor paid for and then tweak the pump or change injectors to get the increased HP .Am I wrong ????

  2. #2
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    431
    Location
    Oakdale, TN
    Tractor
    Kubota M8540HD ROPS

    Default Re: tractor pricing vs engine size

    You might be right. I noticed this also when I was looking at kubota M series machines. I actually made up a spreadsheet and charted the M series lineup in terms of tractor price/PTO HP. The price/PTO HP started at $574 for the M5040HD and decreased to a minimum of $416 for the M9540HD and then went up slightly with the M96S and M108S models. The M9540 was the best bang for the buck in both 2wd and 4wd models.

    The M6040 and M7040 share the same engine, and the M8540 and M9540 share the same engine. Don't forget to consider other differences between the models besides engine HP. For example the 7040 includes a limited slip front differential and bigger wheels/tires.

    As for myself, I bought the 8540 and it does all I need it to do. Like you I would be interested to know exactly what Kubota changed to get a few more HP in the 9540, but I doubt I would make any changes. If I needed more power I would probably trade up.

    I want Kubota to offer a tractor I call the M9540V. This tractor would be a M9540 but it would have a computer system that would control certain parameters (fuel system, turbo, timing, valves, etc) to adjust the power over some range (perhaps 60 to 95 HP) as required/desired and it would improve economy and reduce emissions. It would also simplify tractor buying because it would reduce the number of models in the tractor lineup, which could perhaps lead to reduced costs. For example, the M5040/6040/7040 models could be replaced with the M7040V. The M8540/9540 models could be replaced with the M9540V. The M96S/108S could be replaced with the M108V...... What do you think?
    Kubota M8540HD ROPS, LA1353 FEL

  3. #3
    Bronze Member
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    May 2008
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    73

    Default Re: tractor pricing vs engine size

    I have been kicking tires for about 5 yrs now.I was all set on a JD 5205 with loader and an extra rear remote.But other financial things came up.But all the JD's in that range have the 2.4L engine (179ci).They range in HP from 48-77 HP , all tractors are the same weight,just different stock tire size and either turbo'ed or non-turbo'ed.Big difference in price too.So I do not think that pricing dollar per HP is a good way to get the most bang for YOUR buck,but it is a good way for the manufactuerer to make the most on a certain tractor by making you think you are getting alot more when you really aren't.

  4. #4
    Elite Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    3,015
    Location
    midwest
    Tractor
    JD 4520, Toolcat 5610, Bobcat S300, Case-IH 125 Pro, Case-IH 245, IH 1086, IH 806

    Default Re: tractor pricing vs engine size

    kubota does what nearly every tractor manufacture does. Take the same engine, transmission and change the hp rating. In the small tractors it is usually the addition of a turbo or intercooler to get the different hp rating. In the mid and larger ag tractors, often the only difference is the computer module but the hp difference may 50-75 hp. Usually the injectors and fuel pumps are the same. These tractors will have the same part number for pistons, injectors, fuel pumps etc. The computer regulates the amount of fuel injected. The computers can be reprogrammed, but probably no dealer would do that. The manufactures want the exact serial number before any significant programming could be done to their chip. There are several aftermarket companies that have chips that can be used to change hp in the mid and large ag tractors by 10-35% depending on the desired setting and cost in the $500 range. Many of these devices plug right into the wiring harness. I don't know this for fact, but I believe they fool the computer into changing the hp by altering the fuel rail pressure reading. The computer reads a lower pressure reading and thus increases the pressure in the high pressure common fuel rail systems- which is basically what the manufactures does.
    We have a Case-IH Magnum 245 (245hp). The tractor is identical to their 215 (215hp) and 275 (275hp) with the exception of a few features that are optional on the smaller sizes but standard on the large size. However, there are tens of thousands of dollars difference in the price. Dealers can discount the bigger tractor more than the same size smaller hp tractor due to the significant manufacture mark up on the large hp tractor, which is nearly the same tractor.

  5. #5
    Bronze Member
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    May 2008
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    73

    Default Re: tractor pricing vs engine size

    I am looking to stay away from turbo'ed engines since I plan on handing the tractor down to my son and want simplicity overall for longevity.I have a MF65 that I bought in 1983 and other than tires because of shale ripping sidewalls all I have done is a water pump,tune-up and fluid changes.

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Jerry/MT's Avatar
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    Feb 2008
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    1,988
    Location
    Western Montana
    Tractor
    New Holland TD95D, Ford 4610 & Ferguson TO-30

    Default Re: tractor pricing vs engine size

    Quote Originally Posted by milkie62 View Post
    In general you see a series of tractors with different model #'s same displacement,same weight but just different HP ratings.What are they doing to the non-turbo'ed engines to tweak the HP ? Changing injectors and pump settings? It would seem easier on the wallet to buy the lower HP tractor within a series and wait till the warranty is over and tractor paid for and then tweak the pump or change injectors to get the increased HP .Am I wrong ????
    There's usually a little more to it then just turning up the wick on a fixed displacement engine. Higher horsepower means increased gas pressures and temperatures in the cylinders and higher loads on all the engine parts and the drive line. The heat loads are also increased so the cooling system and the oil systems(used for piston crown cooling as well as bearing lube) sizing is affected also. (By the way this also applies to turbocharged engines also.)

    There are at least two rating philosophies: build the engine/driveline for the max rating and derate it for lower power, OR, add more robust components as you uprate the engine. The only way I know of to get an idea of what philosophy is being used is to look at the parts manual for the engine and driveline and see what parts change as the engine rating increases. if it's only fuel injectors and pump settings, then the first philosophy is being used . If there are lots of changes to components besides the injectors and the pumps settings then the second philosphy is in use.

    Turning up the pump will generally shorten engine life and could effect the drive line life also. I my opinion, it's not good practice to do these things unless money is no object. You don't know where the weak link in the system is but you can be sure you will find it if you turn up the wick.

  7. #7
    Bronze Member
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    May 2008
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    73

    Default Re: tractor pricing vs engine size

    After reading JD specs on utility tractors I would have to say they build heavy then derate.The highest HP in class have turbo's then as HP goes down turbo's are removed,but displacement and engine model remain the same along with cooling specs being the same.

  8. #8
    Elite Member Duffster's Avatar
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    Mar 2009
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    Wisconsin

    Default Re: tractor pricing vs engine size

    Quote Originally Posted by milkie62 View Post
    I am looking to stay away from turbo'ed engines since I plan on handing the tractor down to my son and want simplicity overall for longevity.I have a MF65 that I bought in 1983 and other than tires because of shale ripping sidewalls all I have done is a water pump,tune-up and fluid changes.
    A turbo is nothing to be afraid of

  9. #9
    Super Member
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    Apr 2000
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    6,180
    Location
    central New York
    Tractor
    all makes and models

    Default Re: tractor pricing vs engine size

    Quote Originally Posted by radman1 View Post
    We have a Case-IH Magnum 245 (245hp). The tractor is identical to their 215 (215hp) and 275 (275hp) with the exception of a few features that are optional on the smaller sizes but standard on the large size. However, there are tens of thousands of dollars difference in the price. Dealers can discount the bigger tractor more than the same size smaller hp tractor due to the significant manufacture mark up on the large hp tractor, which is nearly the same tractor.
    Not quite true as there are different gear systems used in the drives on the different sizes mentioned.

    I really love your thoughts that the price difference in the dealers hands!!!!!

    Totally false-------- it's a flat line mark-up on every brand we sell!!!

    Manufactuers do offer extra discounts from time to time for slow movers. They do this differently depending on the situation.

    Some manufacturers trying to buy market share or get rid of old inventory will offer extended 0% sales beyond the other manufacturers time limits. They also will offer larger cash discounts on sales. It isn't a bad thing to watch for! On good brands it can happen at any time even in the middle of a program period.

    Some brands that use the old tooling and older designs are cheaper to build by far often up to fifty and sixty percent or more. They often are machines that have the largest mark-up and are priced with-in five to ten percent on retail of the latest and greatest although when in the field they are often heavy and cumbersome to operate and you might think that exon is the importer. They look stronger do to the bulk mass but are often built using lower grade materials that are more porus and also subject to fail.

    This is a interesting area that we are continually working with when trying to find the best value tractor for a customers work load.

  10. #10
    Elite Member
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    MessickFarmEqu's Avatar
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    Feb 2004
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    Lancaster County, PA

    Default Re: tractor pricing vs engine size

    Yea, lots of misinformation in this thread.

    When you see the same block used across models, its never just an injector change or reprogrammed computer. These is more to the story than what your seeing on the spec sheets.

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