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  1. #1
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    251
    Location
    Sonoma County, CA
    Tractor
    New Holland TC45DA, New Holland TC18

    Default All TnT Created Equal?

    I am making a run at a Grand L from a local dealer that I like and I am leaning toward asking him to add top 'n tilt to the proposed purchase. This is my first tractor ever, so I can't say I know everything about the installation details, but I know what additional SCVs are, what a few quick disconnects in the hitch area might look like and what the side and top cylinders look like and do.

    My instincts tell me that I should make sure that the SCV, lever(s), mounting bracket and other cockpit items are kubota designed and supplied parts because they will probably match the rest of the tractor's controls and lay out better, but how about the rest of the system? Are there options to consider in terms of who manufactures/supplies the hoses, disconnects, cylinders and other related items? In this neck of the woods (Northern California) it seems like the most common aftermarket top 'n tilt set up is one sold by Gearmore. I don't know, however, who actually manufactures the components that go into the Gearmore marketed set up. If anyone has experience with purchasing, installing or operating top 'n tilt on the Grand L, I would appreciate knowing what to ask or look for when discussing this add on with the dealer.

  2. #2
    Elite Member
    Rest in Peace

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    3,741
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Tractor
    Kubota B2710, IH TD6-62 dozer with Drott 4n1 bucket loader

    Default Re: All TnT Created Equal?

    I would go with the kubota factory remotes. The plumbing for these will be minimal and will be custom for YOUR tractor whereas an OEM setup will have an external spool valve and hoses just to connect the valve.

    As for the hydraulic top link and tilt link, I have no idea who supplies them now for Kubota. However, they will not have the double pilot operated check valves. My suggestion is to get the top link from CCM and the tilt link from TCC (Integration Engineering). They are proven commodities and several TBNers have used them with no problems including myself. This will give you cylinders with check valves and be the best bang for the buck and less expensive ($400) than whatever Kubota sells for $700.

    The hoses that connect the cylinders to the remotes can be made by your dealer, HydraulicHoseFittings.com, or any local hydraulic shop. Just remember to get 2-wire 4000 psi hoses as a minimum.

  3. #3
    Super Member _RaT_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    5,814
    Location
    Northern CA.
    Tractor
    Push mower, Snapper 21" 6 shovels, 2 rakes, a pick, 2 pinch bars, a post hole digger (two handle type) and 2 wheel barrows that handle like a Porsche.

    Default Re: All TnT Created Equal?

    I opted to go the 3rd party route. Whether you go with Kubotas TnT that builds the L30's so that the valve body fits into the rear right of the operator exposing only the 3 valve levers or like the one I have where the whole body sits out in the open, you can get quality componets either way. kubota used Gannon cylinders on my L48 Kubota, I purchased Gannons for my L3830 so either way I was getting well made cylinders. I choose my method simply bcause I am familiar with the valve body in that position as two other tractors I use have them there. It's entirely up to you. The Kubota way looks cleaner and does tend to cost a little more.

    P.S. I have yet to see a need for the piloted check valves on my cylinders. There simply is not enough drift to make a difference. Even my 1000lb box scraper can't budge the cylinders. The tilt will drop about 1/2" in a few hours but in less then 1 second I can pull it back into position. When I climb on board the tractor for the day, besides lifting the loader, I suck in all of my rear cylinders, not because they drift, but because I put them in the relaxed hydraulic position. If getting the piloted is important to you, then by all means get them. I personally see no difference with the need for them anymore then needing them on my front loader.

  4. #4
    Super Member Henro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    5,294
    Location
    Few miles north of Pgh, PA
    Tractor
    Kubota B2910, BX2200, Yardman 20HP pos...

    Default Re: All TnT Created Equal?

    <font color="blue"> P.S. I have yet to see a need for the piloted check valves on my cylinders. There simply is not enough drift to make a difference. Even my 1000lb box scraper can't budge the cylinders. </font>

    Actually, the pilot operated check valves have nothing to do with the cylinders themselves...they really are used to prevent leakdown that may come from the control valve.

    If the cylinder itself was leaking past its internal seals...the check valves could do nothing to prevent that...

    If you are lucky enough to get a good control valve...you don't need check valves...my loader will stay in position for days on end without lowering...while other's loaders drop inches per hour. Why? Because I got a good control valve...

    I choose to include check valve on the t and t set up that I am putting together...only because I have no clue as to how well a control valve I purchase would act as far as internal leakage goes...

    The check valves make up for shortcomings in the control valve, not the cylinders...

  5. #5
    Super Member _RaT_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    5,814
    Location
    Northern CA.
    Tractor
    Push mower, Snapper 21" 6 shovels, 2 rakes, a pick, 2 pinch bars, a post hole digger (two handle type) and 2 wheel barrows that handle like a Porsche.

    Default Re: All TnT Created Equal?

    Bill, I realize that and must say that between my L3830, L48 and even my International, all the spools must be or have been top notch. The 3 spool control valve on my L3830 is made by Dinoil.


    "I want to die like my Grandfather did, in my sleep.
    Not screaming and yelling knowing I would die like the other folks in the car"

  6. #6
    Super Member txdon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    5,753
    Location
    central Texas, Lee County
    Tractor
    Kubota L5030 1947 Farmall A John Deere Z910

    Default Re: All TnT Created Equal?

    Riddler, I purchased the Top 'n Tilt when I purchased my Grand L 5030. I have Gearmore cylinders. I did not notice any drift on the box blade (but I do adjust the angles all the time for different cuts and drags) but on the 6' 1000 lb mower I did notice drift of about 1" a hour. Like Rat said just a bump of the knob corrects the drift and it is not a big problem. If I had a choice now I would have asked the dealer for piloted cylinders or would have had the dealer just install the remotes and I would have got the hoses and cylinders elsewhere.

    I was thinking of the T&amp;T as one system but it is actually two. One part is the remotes which includes the connection to the tractor hydraulics, the control levers by the seat and the connectors on the rear of the tractor. The second part is the hoses that plug into the connectors and the hydraulic cylinders. The first part is kubota the second is not (I believe but check with you dealer to make sure). So the second part you can shop around for if you are so inclined.

    Very good question, you are putting a lot of thought and research into your tractor purchase. And you now know the questions to ask the dealer. I read TBN for 6 months before I bought my tractor my dealer was impressed with the questions I asked and said that only one in a hundred customers ask such thoughtful questions (he had to research to answer some).

  7. #7
    Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    644
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Tractor
    Kubota B2410 Bi-Speed Turn, R4's, Top 'N' Tilt, LA 352 Loader w/ Toothbar

    Default Re: All TnT Created Equal?

    Henro - not questioning what you are saying because I don't have enough hydraulic knowledge to do so. However, my loader was one of those that lowered several inches per hour. I immediatly convinced my dealer to replace the control valve, which he did. The bucket still dropped. The leak was internal in the left raise cylinder. Replaced that, now my bucket, like yours, will sit for days.

  8. #8
    Super Member _RaT_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
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    5,814
    Location
    Northern CA.
    Tractor
    Push mower, Snapper 21" 6 shovels, 2 rakes, a pick, 2 pinch bars, a post hole digger (two handle type) and 2 wheel barrows that handle like a Porsche.

    Default Re: All TnT Created Equal?

    What Bill was saying was that a piloted check valve on a hydraulic cylinder will stop drift due to the small amount of leakage almost always found in the control valves. If there is a leak in the piston of the hydraulic ram, it won't address that. A small amount of leakage is standard either at the valve or cylinder. Your loader dropping a couple of inches in an hour would be quite acceptable for most folks. It has no affect on the loaders performance. Relying on the loader to stay in a particular position for hours on end is wishful thinking. I suppose it would be possible but realize the tolerances on the control valve would be so tight that it would be difficult to move.

  9. #9
    Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    644
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Tractor
    Kubota B2410 Bi-Speed Turn, R4's, Top 'N' Tilt, LA 352 Loader w/ Toothbar

    Default Re: All TnT Created Equal?

    Thanks RAT, wasn't questioning Bill's post, just relating the cause of my problem which wasn't the control valve, although it displayed the same symptom. I appreciate the explanation. Actually, my loader was dropping quite a bit quicker. I could live with some drift, it was just too much and the tractor was only a few weeks old. With a load of loam in the bucket it would go from 2 feet in the air to the ground in about 5 minutes. It needed to be replaced. It works perfectly now.

  10. #10
    Super Member _RaT_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    5,814
    Location
    Northern CA.
    Tractor
    Push mower, Snapper 21" 6 shovels, 2 rakes, a pick, 2 pinch bars, a post hole digger (two handle type) and 2 wheel barrows that handle like a Porsche.

    Default Re: All TnT Created Equal?

    Your right, that is a bit too quick.

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