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  1. #1

    Default Bummer B7100 FEL -- looking for advice

    Hello! This is my first post here. I've been through the forums and am amazed at the quality and quantity of information.

    I've got what I believe is a late 1970's B7100 4x4. It's a gear drive unit with 4 lug front wheels. It's got a kubota/ARPS/Ameriquip backhoe with PTO pump, and a FEL of unknown origin.

    Pictures

    Bummer #1: The FEL is plumbed off of the backhoe hydraulics. When I step on the clutch, I have no control over the FEL because the PTO stops. It's really difficult to use.

    Bummer #2: The FEL is really slow. My friend's B1700HST can tip (dump) it's LA301 in 1.6 seconds while turning 2000 RPM. This operation takes my machine nearly 8 seconds.

    Bummer #3: I can't remove the backhoe to use my PTO for other impements without losing my FEL as well.

    I think I can solve all 3 problems with a front mount hydraulic pump powering the FEL, and I've recently seen a B6100 with a setup I'd like to replicate. The 6100's pump was mounted to the front bumper area, and was directly in line with the crankshaft. The pump drive shaft was coupled to the front of the motor with a flex chain coupling like this:

    There are several mysteries I hope folks can help me unravel...

    Mystery #1: The end of my crankshaft has 22 splines, and measures .70" in diameter. Where can I find something that fits these splines? It'd be great if I could use them to drive my new front pump. Alternative suggestions welcome.

    Mystery #2: How does the 3pt lift work? Is it a hydraulic operation? With gear oil? There's no hydraulic fluid in this tractor as far as I know.

    Mystery #3: I'm trying to size the pump I'd need for the FEL, and would like speedy performance like my friend's machine. All the cylinders are 2" I.D. and the tipper cylinders have 16" travel. Sizing the cylinders and pump, I get:

    fluid volume required: pi * R * R * travel * 2 cylinders
    3.14 * 1 * 1 * 16 * 2 = 100 cubic inches of fluid required to dump the FEL

    100 cubic inches is .43 gallons

    My target speed is .43 gallons / 1.6 seconds (from timing my friend's machine) or about 16 gpm at 2000 RPM.

    16 gpm!?! If I put a 16gpm pump on my front bumper the little B1700 might tip over!

    Have I screwed up the calculations? Is my target of 1.6 seconds too fast? The LA301 cylinders are quite a bit smaller than mine, maybe I just have to live with slow speed? Either way, I can't live with the rear PTO pump, so I'm planning to add a front pump as soon as I can cobble all of the bits together.

    Thanks very much for reading all of this, I look forward to insightful replies.

    /chris

  2. #2
    Elite Member hazmat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
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    4,028
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    West Newbury, MA & Harrison, ME
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    Kubota L5460HSTC

    Default Re: Bummer B7100 FEL -- looking for advice

    Welcome to tbn - suggest you invest a few dollars in the kubota Owners, Parts & Service manuals for your unit. You should be able to get them thru your local dealer - or here online Messicks

    I've never seen a three point that isn't run by hydraulics (doesn't mean that such an animal doesn't exist). Look on the side of the engine for a pump & some tubing heading aft. Don't know if you can plumb into it for the FEL or not. the above manuals should help you figure it out.

    Where in NH are you? Chappells in Milford has a good rep - (I have a new B3030 on order there).

    Edit here - most small compacts have hydraulic flow in the range of 4-6 GPM.
    Hazmat

  3. #3
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    1,112
    Location
    Mass, Northshore, Merrimack Valley
    Tractor
    B6100DT

    Default Re: Bummer B7100 FEL -- looking for advice

    .

    Your FEL looks like mine with the exception of the aftermarket handles at the valve body. kubota B219. BH looks like mine too, B670. There's a link in another thread somewhere to a *.PDF copy of these manuals.

    It sure looks like some PO has done some extensive re-plumbing though!

    .
    Dan C.
    B6100DT, FEL, BH

  4. #4

    Default Re: Bummer B7100 FEL -- looking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by hazmat
    Welcome to tbn - suggest you invest a few dollars in the kubota Owners, Parts & Service manuals for your unit. You should be able to get them thru your local dealer - or here online Messicks
    Thanks, Hazmat. Parts manual is waiting for me at Chappell, and the service manual should be there soon.
    I've never seen a three point that isn't run by hydraulics (doesn't mean that such an animal doesn't exist). Look on the side of the engine for a pump & some tubing heading aft.
    I imagine it's hydraulic, I'm just a little puzzled because the only fluid reserviors i can find are for fuel, coolant and gear oil. None for hydraulic fluid. There is some plumbing running along the right side of tractor back to the 3pt lift mechanism. Could there be a hydraulic system that I've yet to discover?
    Edit here - most small compacts have hydraulic flow in the range of 4-6 GPM.
    What are they using that hydraulic flow for? I've got gear drive. The only use I can think of is the 3 pt. That'd be a lot of juice for lifting my mower

  5. #5

    Default Re: Bummer B7100 FEL -- looking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno1
    .

    Your FEL looks like mine with the exception of the aftermarket handles at the valve body. kubota B219. BH looks like mine too, B670. There's a link in another thread somewhere to a *.PDF copy of these manuals.
    Thanks Danno. BH is a KUW-200 according to the plate hanging from it. The FEL has no signage.

    It sure looks like some PO has done some extensive re-plumbing though!
    You're not kidding. Where does your FEL hydraulic power come from?

    /chris

  6. #6
    Elite Member hazmat's Avatar
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    West Newbury, MA & Harrison, ME
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    Kubota L5460HSTC

    Default Re: Bummer B7100 FEL -- looking for advice

    On almost all tractors the gear oil is the hydraulic oil - common sump.

    the 4-6GPM is mostly for loader cycle time. It may include the power steering, though some have a seperate pump for that. Also can run three point log splitters etc (although a bit on the slower side) as well as backhoes. Hydrostatic transmissions have their own pump as part of the tranny (though it is uses the same oil).
    Hazmat

  7. #7
    Elite Member wushaw's Avatar
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    Mar 2005
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    Bristol Texas
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    Kubota L2800, 15 hp 372 Mitsubishi

    Default Re: Bummer B7100 FEL -- looking for advice

    In image 104 you can see your pump on the rh side of the engine with the tubing attached to it, that tubing will go to the rear end of the tractor somewhere....big tube is return, small is pressure and there should be a sump filter at the lowest point of the rearend...probably a cleanable screen that is held on by a couple of bolts.

    Your fill port should be somewhere around the gear shifter and the full level is a bolt on the side of the tranny case about halfway up also close to gear shifter.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Bummer B7100 FEL -- looking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by hazmat
    On almost all tractors the gear oil is the hydraulic oil - common sump.
    No kidding? Do they use 90 weight for the loader? I changed the gear oil when it was 20 degrees in the garage. I know all too well how much oil the trans requires -- I was filling it for 3 days! I guess that makes some sense now.

    So, the 3pt is lifted with gear oil, and I can run gear oil in my FEL as well?

    What's going on with this one?
    eBay: kubota Tractor B6100E Tractor w/ Front Loader

    The loader hoses seem to be going near the plumbing for the 3 pt, but the loader also appears to be acting as a reservoir, which makes me think the loader is using a hydraulic system independent of the trans.

    the 4-6GPM is mostly for loader cycle time. It may include the power steering, though some have a seperate pump for that. Also can run three point log splitters etc (although a bit on the slower side) as well as backhoes. Hydrostatic transmissions have their own pump as part of the tranny (though it is uses the same oil).
    Huh. I'd never have guessed that all of these systems (hydro trans, log splitters, backhoes, power steering) were using heavy oil.

    Am I understanding this correctly? Do I have the right stuff (90 weight) in my gearbox?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Bummer B7100 FEL -- looking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by wushaw
    In image 104 you can see your pump on the rh side of the engine with the tubing attached to it, that tubing will go to the rear end of the tractor somewhere....big tube is return, small is pressure and there should be a sump filter at the lowest point of the rearend...probably a cleanable screen that is held on by a couple of bolts.

    Your fill port should be somewhere around the gear shifter and the full level is a bolt on the side of the tranny case about halfway up also close to gear shifter.
    I'm guessing you're talking about this picture IMGP0105.JPG


    The two hard lines on the right side go to the lever that controls the 3pt. The forward end goes to a box with 4 bolts (the link blows the picture up pretty big). I guess that box is the pump.

    ...So...

    Should I plumb my loader to this thing instead of the backhoe, and give up on the front pump scheme?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Bummer B7100 FEL -- looking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by wushaw
    Your fill port should be somewhere around the gear shifter and the full level is a bolt on the side of the tranny case about halfway up also close to gear shifter.
    I have a dipstick right next to the fill port on top of the trans near the shifter.

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