Surprises when picking up fluids / filters for 50 hr service

[DiezNutz]

Toolguy, with all due respect...

I use regular Mobil Delvac 15w-40 in my work truck's engine, a 5.9L Cummins.

That has no bearing here. Cummins endorses 15w-40 for your engine.

Go to any place that sells Diesel oil and all you're going to find is 15w-40 regular or 5w-40 synthetic.

Also has little bearing here (and isn't completely true, as I've bought other weights in non-so-exotic places).

The Kubota dealers that recommend 15w-40 are not stupid. If it caused problems they would be the first to know.

Would they? Bear with me for a second... let's suppose all they've ever used is 15w-40. And the average Kubota they sold needs an engine rebuild at X hours. Now X is probably a big number, like several thousand hours, so noone thinks it's strange or knows the difference... all seems perfectly reasonable. The customer probably doesn't bat an eye because "it's lasted so long", and the dealer is happy because it's keeping the service dept. earning. As far as anyone knows, yep, that's just how long they last (because it's only ever been done one way).

Now let's suppose same dealer stuck with Kubota recommendations and as a result those same engines went hundreds if not a couple thousand hours longer. Why? By not being subjected to increased wear during the early hours of their service life when the thicker oil didn't get into those bearings and bushings quite as fast from cold starts. Guess we'll never know! It's similar to, "well if Bob hadn't smoked cigarettes for 20 years, he would've lived 10 years longer before that heart attack". Except direct cause-and-effect relationships between cigarettes and health problems are well-established, having been studied by legions of doctors and scientists. Dealers aren't busy looking for a pattern...again, because nobody's complaining, and if they did - well "prove it". Kubota has published their recommendations, but they don't have the resources to police them. The effects won't show up until LONG after the warranty is expired, so chances are they never know what the dealer uses.

Oil related engine failure is probably the last thing anyone needs to worry about. Just change it at regular intervals and your engine will last a long time.

I agree 100% with that. Using the "wrong" grade oil isn't going to directly cause engine failure, at least not any more than I can pinpoint whether a Big Mac I ate 10 years ago will give me cancer 10 years from now, nor would I worry about it. To "your engine will last a long time" I would like to add, "even longer if you use the correct service & grade oil". Seems like a simple preventative-maintenance thing to do. What good argument is there NOT to use what Kubota specifies? Saving a few pennies a quart? We all talk about things we can do to make these tractors last forever... so why give my Kubota a cigarette and take a chance on robbing some of its life?

Some common-knowledge facts:

• Internal engine wear is never more accelerated than during a cold-start and the moments that follow due to lack of available and complete lubrication.
• The first number in a multi-grade oil is the ever-important cold viscosity grade, or the equivalent weight of the oil when cold. It is directly proportional to how rapidly and completely the oil will flow to the bearing surfaces.
• The thicker the oil at cold, the higher the system oil pressure. Don't count on the pump to "force" the oil where it needs to go once the pressure relief opens. That oil will have to come up to a higher temperature to achieve the same viscosity/lubricity as the lighter grade. What's happening in the meantime?

Two things not to lose sight of in this particular thread are (1) FIRST oil change on a new engine, and (2) COLD climate. As that engine continues to wear in over time, it becomes less of an issue. I've even gone up a grade on higher-mileage/hour engines to compensate for diminished oil pressure.

In the "gearhead" circles I also run in, the conventional wisdom is if you're going to deviate from the recommendations when breaking in a new motor, you go a grade THINNER than normal or not at all.

Lastly, the question of all questions is:
Does KUBOTA manufacture, contract, distrubute, or sell 15W-40 oil?

OK. I'm spent.

 

[ronjhall]

As you already found out. Premium UDT is the SUDT product in Canada.
Kubota has been slow in keeping their oil info up to date. You will find that the latest standards diesel engine oil will not be found in Kubota manuals for years down the road. Use 15w-40 rated for diesel engine. Rating CC or CD are the requirements in my manual (2000 B2910). Latest ratings are CJ. Lots of info on oils in the Oil, Fuel & Lubricants forum here on TBN.
Here is a recent thread. Diesel Engine Oil

 

[Taiser]

I think I have an extra piece in this UDT SUDT puzzle.

Every dealer for about 100 miles around here only carries one kind of hydraulic oil. It turns out it is called neither UDT nor SUDT but "Premium UDT". Thats what I have a 20 liter tub of in the back of my van right now.

I just read the tub and it says:

"Kubota Premium UDT: Performance similar to UDT but with superior cold weather properties".

It appears to be manufactured specifically for Kubota Canada.

I strongly suspect that what I am sitting on there IS SUDT and that is ALL that is sold in Canada given our weather but it is branded under this different name "Premium UDT".

I'm willing to bet that this is what my tractor came with as well. I imagine that at somepoint in the past someone in Kubota Canada decided that the regular UDT stuff just wasn't good enough for our weather so it doesn't eve appear to be sold around here.

Just something else to confuse us Canadians!

That's the exact same stuff I use. I mentioned that to the dealer and he said it's the equivalent. Seems to work fine, but then I don't know if it would be different with SUDT since my machine has always been on this Premium stuff. I bet you're right this is some kind of Canadian thing. I can't even find any SUDT in town here, and this is a forestry work town???

 

[DiezNutz]

As you already found out. Premium UDT is the SUDT product in Canada.

I guess we should keep in mind that things may not always be as they appear north of the border.

Kubota has been slow in keeping their oil info up to date. You will find that the latest standards diesel engine oil will not be found in Kubota manuals for years down the road. Use 15w-40 rated for diesel engine. Rating CC or CD are the requirements in my manual (2000 B2910). Latest ratings are CJ.

Time out. Have you seen a B3030 manual? It's more up to date than that. The recommended service ratings are CF for high-sulfur fuel, and CF-4 or CG-4 with low-sulfur fuel. Manuals specify the MINIMUM categories, although you'd be hard pressed to buy oil now that is at or below these ratings.

OK, first off you can scratch the reg CF. Why? When my manual was written "high-sulfur" meant S5000 (0.5%), which as of June 1 you can't buy anymore. All off-road diesel is now S500(LSD), which is what Kubota meant by "low-sulfur". (S15 ULSD, the new on-road ultra-low-sulfur, was a pipe dream when these engines & fuel systems were designed). Kubota's 10W-30 is rated up to CI-4, which means it's suitable for either LSD or ULSD. (My guess is it will eventually be CJ-4 to reflect the trend in fuels).

Now... ALL of that... and STILL no 15W-40 in the manual OR on the shelves!
I'm still waiting for someone to provide a sound argument for using it, besides "well everyone else is". Given the choice, I would run the 5W-40 synthetic first (in fact, I do in my other Diez-els, Shell Rotella T)

Here's a handy API service guide for anyone interested in what the letters & numbers mean.
http://www.apicj-4.org/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf

 

[Greenfield Dave]

The plot gets thicker..

So I call another rather big Kubota dealer in the area.

All they carry is UDT. He too did not know that "Super UDT" even existed and said they have always used UDT and once the warranty expires use another aftermarket generic hydraulic oil.

He also said they sell 15W-40 as engine oil and run it year around and that is what he recommends.

What is this - a plot to confuse Canadians????

Maybe it's the exchange rate!!! LOL!! I would use UDT in the front end in your area..89/90 is like molasses in winter...

 

[canoetrpr]

Can't thank you folks enough!.

My 50 hour service is done. I've posted a (long) report in this thread:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showthread.php p=1182251#post1182251

I ended up sticking with the premium UDT for the front axle. I was worried about how the 80W-90 would do in the winter. Few others had this same thought in this thread. I've now got enough spare gear oil to last me a LONG time!

 

[canoetrpr]

Lastly, the question of all questions is:
Does KUBOTA manufacture, contract, distrubute, or sell 15W-40 oil?

Kubota in Canada does distribute both 15W-40 and 10W-30 and it is branded as Kubota. The dealer that sold me the 15W-40 had both in stock so I was sure that he wasn't trying to do this just out of his financial interest.

I decided to stick with the 15W-40 I had after many of the responses here.

In an ideal world I think one would switch oils between summer and winter but given how pervasive 15W-40 use is in the diesel world up here and in the U.S, I figured it wasn't worth spending any time worrying about. Plus my tractor is garaged and I've got a block heater that I try to use in the winter.

Next time around I think I'll consider using a 5W-40 synthetic. I've used Mobil 1 since the first oil change in both my cars which are not garaged and been pretty happy with it.

 

[Lockport]

I think I have an extra piece in this UDT SUDT puzzle.

Every dealer for about 100 miles around here only carries one kind of hydraulic oil. It turns out it is called neither UDT nor SUDT but "Premium UDT". Thats what I have a 20 liter tub of in the back of my van right now.

I just read the tub and it says:

"Kubota Premium UDT: Performance similar to UDT but with superior cold weather properties".

It appears to be manufactured specifically for Kubota Canada.

I strongly suspect that what I am sitting on there IS SUDT and that is ALL that is sold in Canada given our weather but it is branded under this different name "Premium UDT".

I'm willing to bet that this is what my tractor came with as well. I imagine that at somepoint in the past someone in Kubota Canada decided that the regular UDT stuff just wasn't good enough for our weather so it doesn't eve appear to be sold around here.

Just something else to confuse us Canadians!

You have caught on, Sir! There is no SUDT in Canada. I went down the same road with my dealer. The Premium UDT is full synthetic (the "S" in SUDT) and the 20 litre pail in the back of your van IS the Golden Goose. Congratulations!

 

[Lockport]

---Anybody have an opinion on what kind of shelf life this UDT would have if I used some for the front axle and kept it around for future fluid changes for the front axle?

...

I would suspect about 1000years, give or take. The plastic pail will deteriorate before the oil goes bad.

 

[Lockport]

One further point to note. Albeit most heavy trucks use 15w-40 for diesel. I change the oil at 50 hours and, like most of your vehicles, I went with the recomended Mobil1 full Synthetic and used, as the manual recommends, 10W30. I am 18 klicks north of Winnipeg and it can get awful cold here. Tha last thing I want is molasses for oil at 30 below. Mobil1 10W-30 meets all the necessary qualities for a diesel engine and pours to -53. That translates (for three winters) to its going to start immediately with a 15 second glowplug warm. Just my 2 cents.