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  1. #1
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    Default B7510 Top N Tilt-Tilt cylinder too long

    I got the power beyond fitting from Mark at C & C this week. After much fumbling on my part (don't ask) I finally got everything installed. This was my first experience with hydraulics.

    2 problems, 1 small, 1 may be large:

    The top cylinder makes a "chattering" noise as it extends when it has the weight of a 6' straight blade on it. No chattering when I tested it without anything hooked to it. My best guess is the check valve is cycling rapidly, like 100 times per second. Cylinder extends OK, just noisy. No noise when retracting. I have cycled a lot of times thinking maybe it had air in it but no change.

    The second, and more worrisome problem, is the tilt cylinder appears to be about 2" too long for the B7510. With the straight link between upper and lower 3PH arms on the left side (normal position) and the cylinder fully retracted, the left side of the 6' blade is no more than 1 1/2" lower than the right side. When I extend the cylinder the right end of the blade is all the way down on the ground before the cylinder is even fully extended.

    I changed the left link to the adjustable link that was originally on the right side and have it extended as far as it will go and the left end of the blade is still only about 3" or 4" lower than the right end. If I extend the tilt cylinder the right end still hits the ground.

    It appears to me that I need either a shorter cylinder for the tilt.

    The end shafts on the cylinder screw into the cylinder and I have them screwed in as far as they will go (cylinder as short as possible). I even cleaned up some welding splatter on the threads so I could screw the ends all the way in so there is no more adjustment available there.

    I also have the pin on the bottom 'fork' in the upper hole and in the hole furthest from the tractor on the lower 3PH arm so that I have the shortest linkage possible. There is no room to drill a hole in the 'fork' nearer the cylinder to shorten it.

    Anyone who has top n tilt on a B7510 or B7610 had that problem? If not, could you possibly measure your tilt cylinder for me?

    I will call Mark Monday and see what he says but I noticed he only shows 1 tilt cylinder on his website so he may not have a shorter cylinder available.

    Sorry for the long post but I am trying to give as much detail as possible.

    This may all be easy to fix when I talk to Mark Monday so don't think I am saying anything negative about him or his company.

    Bill Tolle

  2. #2
    Epic Contributor Bird's Avatar
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    Default Re: B7510 Top N Tilt-Tilt cylinder too long

    Bill, when I rigged the top 'n tilt for my B2710, the cylinder I got was too long, too. But I was able to get an inch cut from each end and it worked great then. I can't picture your cylinder, so I don't know whether that's a possibility or not.

  3. #3
    Elite Member
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    Default Re: B7510 Top N Tilt-Tilt cylinder too long

    This is a known issue with the CCM (a/k/a Integration Engineering TCC) tilt cylinder and Mark at CCM knows about it as he and I had several PMs regarding it.

    The bottom line is the retracted length of the cylinder with the end forks is too long by a couple of inches. You can drill another hole in the longer fork and reclaim an inch or so but the problem is still there.

    The cylinder should have a 4" stroke not 5" and the retracted length should be about 17". The cylinder is generic for all applications which is another problem.

    There are a few things you can do and I described it the the post below. I don't believe cutting and shortening the cylinder is an option here since the fork ends are screw-in.

    I described the issue along with a few pictures in this post. Just scroll to near the end for the info.

    Tilt cylinder problem

  4. #4
    Super Member Henro's Avatar
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    Default Re: B7510 Top N Tilt-Tilt cylinder too long

    Bill,

    The lenght of the fixed lift rod that you are not using at the moment should give some indication of what length tilt cylinder you would want.

    Ideally, in my opinion, you would want the tilt cylinder (when fully retracted) to be a bit shorter than whatever the length of the fixed lift rod is.

    I think if you compare the ratcheting lift rod min and max length, this would tell you what an ideal cylinder stroke would be if you were to mimic what the stock mechanical system that came with the tractor offered as far as tilt goes.

    Bottom line, what I would do is measure the fixed lift rod and use the difference between the shortest and longest lenghts of the adjustable lift rod as the stroke needed to duplicate the stock setup.

    Subtract half of this stroke from the lenght of the fixed lift rod. This would be the ideal length of the hydraulic cylinder when retracted.

    We you are done figuring, you will have the retracted length and stroke of the ideal cylinder for your tractor, if the ideal is to duplicate the stock range of movement.

    Please note that sometimes a cylinder that (when retracted fully) is longer than the fixed-length stock lift rod is employed as a tilt cylinder. This is probably the case with what you have at the moment.

    When this is done, with the hydraulic cylinder at half stroke, the adjustable lift rod is turned to a point where the 3PH is level, and the hydraulic cylinder is then usually able to tilt the 3PH both ways. But some 3PH lift is lost when this is done.

    As MadRef mentioned, you seem to have a cylinder that is too long for your tilt application. I know on my B2910 I could not get tilt both ways easily without losing 3PH lift capability, if I used readily available cylinders. I ended up using two tilt cylinders, each with 4" stroke, and actually gained some lift on the 3PH. However I am pretty sure that 4" stroke on one tilt cylinder would be enought for most people as far as tilt goes (+/- 2").

    Specifically, questions I would have for you are:

    What is your fixed lift rod lenght?

    What is the min/max lenght of the adjustable lift rod.

    What is the retracted lenght of the tilt cylinder you have now?

    What is the stroke of the tilt cylinder?

    With this info, I believe we could compute what you need to duplicate what came stock with your tractor, and also with info on the cylinder you now have, we could compute how much different the cylinder you got from C & C would be...

    Hope this makes some sense... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]



  5. #5
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    Default Re: B7510 Top N Tilt-Tilt cylinder too long

    When the tilt cylinder is extended to half its length (stroke), the measurement from pin hole to pin hole should equal what the factory stock fixed link is. That measurement should be around 16". The difference between the min and max distances of the factory stock adjustable tilt link should give you the ideal stroke for the cylinder. This measurement is about 4".

    The CCM (a/k/a Integration Engineering TCC) tilt cylinder has a stroke of 5" and using their supplied forks the retracted length is around 18". This assumes you got the same forks I did. The ideal setup for the kubota B-series is a 4" stroke with a 14" retracted length.

    There are several things you can do to fix your problem. You can get a different cylinder (costly). You can fab new forks that more closely match you factory components (not difficult). You can add a fork extension to the non-tilt link and redrill the holes in the CCM forks to shorten the distance (easy). Or you can do nothing and live with it.

    I chose to live with it last year as it's not really all that bad as long as you understand the limitations. This year I plan on getting a new cylinder with the right dimensions and take the check valve from the CCM/TCC cylinder and put it on the new cylinder.

    You know, we have had this same discussion on this particular tilt cylinder before on TBN, I just can't seem to find it.

    Choices, choices, choices. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

  6. #6
    Elite Member milkman's Avatar
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    Default Re: B7510 Top N Tilt-Tilt cylinder too long

    There is another guy that has a top cylinder that is now too short since he put the Pats easy change on his lift arms, maybe that could be a soluton for you, the Pats Easy Change adds almost three inches to the length of the lower lift arms, sounds like it would solve two problems, compensate for the too long top cylinder and save the skinned knuckles and a lot of cussing when you switch implements. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

  7. #7
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    Default Re: B7510 Top N Tilt-Tilt cylinder too long

    </font><font color="blue" class="small">( That measurement should be around 16". The difference between the min and max distances of the factory stock adjustable tilt link should give you the ideal stroke for the cylinder. This measurement is about 4".

    The CCM (a/k/a Integration Engineering TCC) tilt cylinder has a stroke of 5" and using their supplied forks the retracted length is around 18". This assumes you got the same forks I did. The ideal setup for the kubota B-series is a 4" stroke with a 14" retracted length. )</font>

    Mad has it right, I got the same setup he got which is about 2" too long.

    I can't live with it because the left end of the blade doesn't go down far enough to be useful. The right end goes down too far. It hits the ground before the cylinder reaches the end of it's extended travel.

    If I extended the link on the left side I would not have enough lift. As it is I have lost a little clearance with the 3PH all the way up. The bottom of the blade is only about 5" or 6" off the ground now.

    It is dark and I will do some measuring tomorrow and post the information.

    I looked at redrilling the holes in the 'forks' and I might be able to gain 1" if I redrilled but I would need to either have the original holes welded up on the top since a new hole would only be about 1/2" lower, the 2 holes would almost overlap.

    The bottom is about the same situation, 1/2" at best.

    I am going to talk to Mark Monday and see what he says. Perhaps he will take the cylinder back and I can find a cylinder 2" shorter that will accept the screws that the forks are welded to.

    I will keep you all up to date as it develops and if I can get it worked out will post parts #'s and pictures when it is done.

    Thanks to all for your help and suggestions.

    Bill Tolle

  8. #8
    Elite Member
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    Default Re: B7510 Top N Tilt-Tilt cylinder too long

    </font><font color="blue" class="small">( I am going to talk to Mark Monday and see what he says. Perhaps he will take the cylinder back and I can find a cylinder 2" shorter that will accept the screws that the forks are welded to.)</font>

    Good luck in finding a cylinder that will accept those screw-in forks. I believe those cylinders were custom made over in Europe somewhere.

    I did measure the threads and as I recall they were 7/8 x 11 or something metric very close. I could not find any threaded rod or nuts here that would match the threads. I was going to cut some threads on my lathe but I never got around to getting some 7/8 rod to try it.

    I am just going to cut the forks from the threads and use them on another cylinder when I find one. The tilt cylinder itself is going to be used on another project I have lined up for the summer.

  9. #9
    Super Member ronjhall's Avatar
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    Default Re: B7510 Top N Tilt-Tilt cylinder too long

    MadReferee
    Before you go out and buy a new cylinder, contact me. I have the opposite problem as you have. The original cylinder that I put on my T&amp;T was what I thought to short of a stroke (3 5/16). So like you I started to look for a new cylinder. Well I got lucky. Bid on and won 2 side link cylinders with 4" stroke. They are identical to my Tisco except for stroke and cylinder bore. I only need one of these cylinders. Will probably also be getting rid of the Tisco. When I get a chance to get new cylinder mounted on my B2910 I will post pictures. Here is a picture of Birds cylinders.

    PM me if this will help you.
    Here are the 2 threads that Bird started when He did his T&amp;T. They have some of the same discussions as this thread.
    Click Here
    Click Here
    It amazing how time flies. These threads started over 5 years ago. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

  10. #10
    Platinum Member
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    Default Re: B7510 Top N Tilt-Tilt cylinder too long

    </font><font color="blue" class="small">( Well I got lucky. Bid on and won 2 side link cylinders with 4" stroke. They are identical to my Tisco except for stroke and cylinder bore.)</font>

    You don't happen to know what brand and model number the 4" stroke cylinders are do you? Or who you got them from (in the hope they might have more or know the part #'s)?

    I did find a Prince cylinder that looks like it might work if I cut the ends off and had the forks welded on F200040 Prince.

    I also found a 2X4 Chief cylinder that might work.

    Unfortunately, neither has the pilot check valve on it.

    I am going to see if Mark can tell me who made the cylinders he sells and try to track down a 4" version. Then I could use the threaded rods and it should have the check valve on it already.

    If the rain will let up later this morning I will get out take some measurements.

    Bill Tolle

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