How Can Kubota Survive the JD 4010 Onslaught?

[glennmac]

Rumors are flying here and on CTB about the new JD 4010 series. Supposedly it will be available sometime between this fall and next summer. Reports from leaking dealers say that there will be 75 fixes to the 4000 series, possibly including a new hydro, improved pedals, factory T&T, quick hitches, improved controls, new mower decks, etc., etc.

If this is true, what is Kubota going to do to compete? The only thing that I am "sure" of in my own mind is that Kubota has a better hydro, Kubota has better control layouts than the JD midframes (4200-4400), and that Kubota has better quality and reliability. I have argued elsewhere that JD has superior attachment designs, more features, and a functionally appealing mid-frame size (in between the sizes of the Kubota 2910 and 3010).

If JD comes out with an equivalent hydro and improved controls, what objective reason will there be to prefer Kubota except fear about reliability (which will still remain as a serious issue)? Wont Kubota have to do something competitive in response? What do we think Kubota should do?

I think Kubota needs a frame and weight size in between the 2910 and 3010. Something that's still a relatively nimble belly mower. They need to make the deck attachment as simple as on the 2910. They need a quick coupling, frame-attached backhoe that doesnt interfere with a belly mower. They need a hydraulic control separate from the 3ph to raise and lower the belly mower. Better seats. Lockable loader control arm next to the seat. Better loader visibility hood.

I predict a lot of people will defect to an improved JD midframe unless some sort of improvements are made to Kubota.

 

[Boondox]

I nearly bought a JD 4300 before settling on my L3010. I actually liked the Deere a tad better...but all those quality control issues scared me away from them. IMHO: it doesn't matter how JD changes the product line; the only thing that would get me to go green is improving the reputation of what they already have.

Pete

www.GatewayToVermont.com

 

[JATO_RaT]

Hmmm, what, Glen, relax, words like "If this is true, what is Kubota going to do to compete?" Lets think about it. First and foremost, this happens all the time. Big News "New Holland comes out with super ergonomic tractor in their new Boomer lineup", what will JD and Kubota do? The same as always, build a great product. Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, same thing. Competition brings out the best. I welcome JD's new 4010 series. I'm glad to see the spirit of competition, I don't fear it. If JD has a vast improvement over the existing 4000 series with the 4010 then its to their credit to recognize any short comings and get back to the drawing board and improve. I have talked to the local JD dealer and he has been hoping that the hydro units would get a facelift. The price will ultimately have as much to do with JD's success as anything. You can speculate and worry all you desire, the truth is, JD knows they needed to make some changes. Wait and see. If John Deere rebuilds on the so called "75" flaws in their 4000 series, then more power to them, give em a pat on the back and know that if your ever in the market for a new tractor, JD may have one for you. . While always trying to be as open minded as possible and objective, I do have some opinions that I can vouch for from trial. I still believe the Kubota ETVS diesel is the best, cleanest burning diesel made. While Yanmar and Shibura are fine, Kubota still has the edge here. Hopefully JD will come out with a more reliable hydro, the Kubotas is hands down the best. Folks that buy JD deserve the confidence that they have a good product, I believe they do have a good product and only hope it gets better. How can Kubota compete, easy, continue to build better and better products, its simple, what will New Holland do, the same. Ever hear about Power-Trac tractor? It is a very unique, made in the USA articulating tractor. It competes against not only JD, NH and Kubota, but Bobcat as well. I wish them all the success in the world, I don't worry about it. Bring on the competition, we'll all be the better for it! --- Rat...

 

[frank_f15]

ever wonder why they needed 75 fixes for the new model? how many fixes for that model will be needed. don't know where u got your figures, but if they really did need to fix75 problems, it never should have been put on the market in the first place.seems like jd may have a quality control problem. but then again they all do at times. my $.02 worth.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

<font color=blue>...what is Kubota going to do to compete? ...</font color=blue>

Nothing... except keep doing the same good things they've been doing right along.../w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Kubota owns the under 30 hp compact tractor market, JD & NH are neck/neck for 2nd place...{doesn't appear to change any time soon}

And not for nothing... but a number of these JD defects are really blown out of proportion...

For example Glenn, ... everytime you post about the John Deere defects... readers/on-lookers may be thinking... Wow, I'm not getting that, too many problems Glenn has been having... Multiply that out a few hundred or thousand times with all the other "Glenn" type postings and you could have an epidemic on your hands...

The only problem is... most of these "Glenn's" don't have any John Deere compact tractors they in fact own... they are just repeating a story they heard somewhere along the line and passing it along... whether true or not... /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

{and we all know how the story can change... being repeated multiple times along the way...} /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[Knight9]

What will Kubota do??

I presume that in my area they will continue to market an exceptional tractor for several thousand dollars less than the exceptional green tractor down the road. If it was the other way around...I would have a green one in my garage. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Kevin

 

[cowboydoc]

John,
Yes I agree with you about the problems with deere being blown way out of proportion. I have had zero problems with mine and I challenge anyone to work that size tractor any harder than I do. I know other people that have them and they have not had the problems either. The front end problem was kind of a joke. It really wasn't a front end problem but a user problem. The tractor performed like a tractor and not a lawn mower, so deere made it perform like a lawn mower. Most of the hype about all of deere's problems are more urban legend than anything else. Anytime you come out with a completely new tractor you are going to have some problems but the 75 fixes and things like that have gotten way out of line. It's just like saying that now deere has fixed those they're going to send kubota and new holland into bankruptcy. It's just not going to happen. Kubota will come out with a better one than deere in a year or two and on and on it will go. In the end we will get a better product and the bar will keep being raised.

 

[JATO_RaT]

Richard, amen to that and lets all do our best to report on fact. I am not so brand loyal that I wouldn't look at all brands when making a decision on a tractor (or anything for that matter) and when doing so I want a level playing field filled with facts, especially first hand. If someone chooses one brand over the other, lets make sure its for the right reason and not gossip badmouthing about another product. Rat...

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Rat,

Double amen, When I was shopping for a tractor I heard from a Blue dealer salesman that J.D. had settled a class action suit with rental yards over problems with the HST. The settlement included a hush clause. I never had any substantion of this allegation and didn't consider it was a factor in my decision. This was about the same time I stumbled across TBN. I figured if it were true it would not have escaped this board. BTW the dealership now has weeds growing where tractors once were parked.

Al

 

[glennmac]

The reliability of a product, especially an expensive one, is one of the most important factors in the buying decision. Often, there is not good data on reliability. Independent agencies, such as the Consumers Union, made a significant contribution to car buying, for example, when they tracked actual defect percentages and published them.

Currently, the only source of real data on tractor failures is in the hands of the manufacturers. They know their defect and failure rates, but they dont share them with each other or with consumers. So, what evidence do we have about the comparative reliability of tractor brands?

I have never sensed that any registered member of TBN or CTB was spreading false rumors about one of the brands. I think the overwhelming advice given on the forums is that all brands should be considered, that all brands make good products, and that all brands can do the job.

However, we do have evidence of reliability trends: namely, the content of the messages that have been posted on TBN and CTB. I submit that it is a fact that more complaints have been registered by JD users, both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of total posts, than by Kubota or New Holland users. These complaints have centered on the first two years of production of the 4200-4700 models, and continue to a lesser degree to date. The 4100, 790 and 990 (all Yanmar-made, I believe) seem to be relatively trouble free. The negative posts and complaints are not from non-owners badmouthing JD. Rather, they are from severely disappointed and disillusioned JD owners themselves.

As evidence, I give you the current listing of the top 27 Most Popular Posts on the John Deere Board of CTB, which is far more heavily populated with Deere users than TBN is. I think these data speak for themselves:

<font color=blue>John Deere Board
Date Posted Order | Thread

Sorted By Most Popular Posts with Date of Last Post</font color=blue>

<font color=red>113 Posts | 2000-01-23 | 4300-scuffing.......more.....and-more.....
67 Posts | 2001-05-21 | 4300 wheel bolt problems
54 Posts | 2000-07-24 | John Deere Scuffing
42 Posts | 2000-02-21 | Deere refusing to deal with tire scuffing problem
40 Posts | 2000-09-12 | meeting @ john deere augusta
32 Posts | 2000-01-29 | The Deere 4000 wait....
31 Posts | 2001-04-09 | SyncShift Tranny Problems</font color=red>
<font color=blue>28 Posts | 2000-02-13 | JD 4300 vs. Cub Cadet 7305
27 Posts | 2001-03-15 | JD790 vs JD4100</font color=blue>
<font color=red>26 Posts | 1999-12-22 | JD4100-Smoke</font color=red>
<font color=blue>26 Posts | 2000-02-06 | Wheel Weights or Everything About Air Compressors Oil vs Air based</font color=blue>
<font color=red>26 Posts | 2000-12-04 | John Deere Owner opinion poll</font color=red>
<font color=blue>25 Posts | 2000-03-22 | Kubota 3010 or JD 4300
25 Posts | 2000-06-15 | JD4400 owners journal
25 Posts | 2001-03-26 | 4300 vs 4400</font color=blue>
<font color=red>24 Posts | 2000-08-04 | JD Reliability ?</font color=red>
<font color=blue>21 Posts | 2000-02-09 | Three cylinders? Or four?</font color=blue>
<font color=red>21 Posts | 2001-02-12 | JD 4600 Design/Manufacting Defect Index
21 Posts | 2000-12-22 | Power Steering Failure
21 Posts | 2001-01-29 | 4100 metal shavings</font color=red>
<font color=blue>20 Posts | 1999-12-02 | Are-Compact-JDs-still-Yanmars?</font color=blue>
<font color=red>20 Posts | 2000-11-12 | HYDROSTAT PEDALS</font color=red>
<font color=blue>20 Posts | 2000-09-10 | Should I go with the JD4100?</font color=blue>
<font color=red>20 Posts | 2001-05-18 | JD 48 Backhoe Complaint
20 Posts | 2001-07-21 | Three Point Hitch Problem</font color=red>
<font color=blue>19 Posts | 2000-03-19 | John Deere 455 garden tractor</font color=blue>
<font color=red>19 Posts | 1999-09-08 | turf tearing on 4300 JD</font color=red>

There is no similar complaint trend discernable in the Kubota or New Holland forums. This does not mean most JD's have had problems, nor that many JDs have had problem, nor even that a significant number of JDs have had problems. However, I think it is fair to conclude from these trends that, relatively speaking, the JD 4200-4700 series has had a higher incidence of customer dissatisfaction than the competitive Kubota or New Holland lines.

I also think it is inaccurate to characterize the 4000 series front axle problem as a "user" problem--as if customers were using the tractors for purposes other that what the tractors were designed to do. The JD 4000 series was designed and marketed as a series of tractors that would be premier belly mowers. JD touted that no other manufacturer offered belly mowers on 40+ hp tractors. JD heavily marketed the fact that their loaders and backhoes were specially designed not to interfere with a belly mower; that, unlike Kubota and New Holland, the JD belly mower could be operated independently of the 3ph with a separate SCV; that JD 4000 belly mowers provide a superior cut because they are suspended decks rather ground contact decks; and that the JD decks are easy to remove.

There is no doubt that many thousands of customers bought 4000 series mowers to mow their lawns, among other chores. They did not think it was a "joke" when this heavily marketed lawn machine began tearing up lawns. Nor did they think it was a joke when Deere denied for about 12 months that there was even a problem. Deere finally had to recall the axles and replace them, at first trying to limit the replacements to customers who had purchased Deere belly decks.

All these are facts to the best of my knowledge, and new buyers should know them.