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  1. #11
    Veteran Member
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    Erie Pa.
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    Montana R4944, Ford Jubilee, Ford 621, Ford 841

    Default Re: R4041 Loader Issue LB4101

    Quote Originally Posted by TSO View Post
    Shoot... I was hoping I was the only one experiencing that and that it would work itself out. Sounds like a design issue, might even be as simple as the joystick, but I doubt it

    Sent from my Motorola Photon using TractorByNet for Android
    No these are low flow hydraulic systems and doing two different work items at one time is difficult to say the least because of the low flow. On my old ford there is a higher flow pump and it is a lot easier to do more than function at one time (although there are 2 different levers) even on the backhoe because I can use 2 or 3 levers all at one time and they will work but with less power, but it is a totally different type of hydraulic system. I am going to try and adjust my cables this spring and probabaly lub them too to see if I can get a little bit better control, but like I said low pressure (no low flow) only goes so far. I think yours is about the same as mine like 8 or 9 GPM not really much. Then again I could just be talking ont my backside again!
    Montana R4944
    Ford Jubliee, Ford 841, Ford 621 industrial with FEL & BH

  2. #12
    Gold Member
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    Jan 2012
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    288
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    Brookshire TEXAS
    Tractor
    LS R4047

    Default Re: R4041 Loader Issue LB4101

    I have 128 hrs on mine and it wont hardly do more than 1 operation at a time. dont know if its the valve design, too small a pump or what. also my bucket cylinders seem to be pretty weak, even with the 2500 psi I recorded at them. Too small a cylinders I guess.At least its too weak to hurt it self.
    2012 LS R4047 , FEL , Backhoe, kingkutter finish mower,68 " rachet rake, Titan skidsteer 72" root Grapple, JD 145,JD166 ........Dodge 3500 cummins, Kenworth w900l Cat powered ...

  3. #13
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    Montana R4944, Ford Jubilee, Ford 621, Ford 841

    Default Re: R4041 Loader Issue LB4101

    You have to understand, these tractor hydraulic systems were designed to operate a 3pt setup and anything else that it may run is beyond the design. Now that said the original systems are always over designed so that they can be used for other operations. Even the old fords I have had the ability to have the hydraulic plate (under the seat) removed and additional hydraulics added but these added hydraulics were limited because of the flow, that is why they added an additional hydraulic pump off of the front of the engine when a larger FEL or BH were added so there was a higher hydraulic flow to operate these types of equipment. When they had a snow plow or a smaller loader they used the tractors hydraulic system you have seen these loaders they were a single arm style with one raise cylander and usually long forks out the front of the bucket for manure. I think you have the 4047 (Oh yea BLADEHAULER) which is the newer version of my montana and that loader is even an up grade from mine if I am not mistaken it has larger cylanders than I have to increase the lifting capasity, but still these are light duty loaders (and tractors) and they do what they do. Of course you might bennifett with some cable adjustment and lubrication also I don't know.
    Montana R4944
    Ford Jubliee, Ford 841, Ford 621 industrial with FEL & BH

  4. #14
    Elite Member TSO's Avatar
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    SouthEast Michigan
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    Massey 1648 HST Cab

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Guesseral View Post
    You have to understand, these tractor hydraulic systems were designed to operate a 3pt setup and anything else that it may run is beyond the design. Now that said the original systems are always over designed so that they can be used for other operations. Even the old fords I have had the ability to have the hydraulic plate (under the seat) removed and additional hydraulics added but these added hydraulics were limited because of the flow, that is why they added an additional hydraulic pump off of the front of the engine when a larger FEL or BH were added so there was a higher hydraulic flow to operate these types of equipment. When they had a snow plow or a smaller loader they used the tractors hydraulic system you have seen these loaders they were a single arm style with one raise cylander and usually long forks out the front of the bucket for manure. I think you have the 4047 (Oh yea BLADEHAULER) which is the newer version of my montana and that loader is even an up grade from mine if I am not mistaken it has larger cylanders than I have to increase the lifting capasity, but still these are light duty loaders (and tractors) and they do what they do. Of course you might bennifett with some cable adjustment and lubrication also I don't know.
    I understand what you're saying... However, why did my much smaller Kioti NOT experience these issues? Why does my buddy's kubota NOT have these issues. I'm still relatively new to the tractor world, but this is the first time I've seen a tractor have a problem performing two loader actions at the same time.

    Maybe the Hydraulic pressure just needs to be turned up...

    Whad'ya think Hansen? Have you adjusted the output yet on any of these?

    Sent from my Motorola Photon using TractorByNet for Android
    Massey 1648 HST Cab - Hustler Z Diesel 66" mower
    John Deere Gator 620i - 2007 F450 Crew
    6ft bucket * 5ft Tooth/Tine Bucket * QA Forks * 8ft Rhino BackBlade
    7ft Rhino BoxBlade * 7ft LandPride Rake * 6.5ft KK HD Box Disc * Middle buster plow
    WorkSaver SG-26 StumpGrinder * Wallenstein BX42s Chipper * 8ft Ford Brush-Mower
    7.5ft QA snow plow

    Massey = 440 hrs @ 4/15/15

  5. #15
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    Montana R4944, Ford Jubilee, Ford 621, Ford 841

    Default Re: R4041 Loader Issue LB4101

    Can't answer those questions, not farmilar with either one of those maunfacturers..
    Montana R4944
    Ford Jubliee, Ford 841, Ford 621 industrial with FEL & BH

  6. #16
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    Default Re: R4041 Loader Issue LB4101

    Quote Originally Posted by Bladehauler View Post
    Thank you for the detailed explanation Hansen equipment.
    My last name is also Hansen , so that means I get a discount right?
    Or shot. You need to be careful when it comes to these things, family and all.
    Brian
    Top and Tilt Kits by Fit Rite Hydraulics

  7. #17
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    Forest City Pa.
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    LS,Kioti,Branson Dealer

    Default Re: R4041 Loader Issue LB4101

    Quote Originally Posted by TSO View Post
    I understand what you're saying... However, why did my much smaller Kioti NOT experience these issues? Why does my buddy's kubota NOT have these issues. I'm still relatively new to the tractor world, but this is the first time I've seen a tractor have a problem performing two loader actions at the same time.

    Maybe the Hydraulic pressure just needs to be turned up...

    Whad'ya think Hansen? Have you adjusted the output yet on any of these?

    Sent from my Motorola Photon using TractorByNet for Android
    Adjusting the pressure higher would help with lifting more,and a little more cycle time until you reach the point of the pumps max flow capacity. Then the pump would need to spin faster or be of a larger displacement. You cant change the limited RPM with out damage to the tractor and a larger pump would be to small for the hyd line, hose, valve etc.so your back to square one. As for operating multi functions and the difficulty in feathering compared to the Kioti,I would say the difference is in the spool its self with a better feathering land at the spools edge. Remember all these tractors are simple hyd systems with simple componets. Heavy equipment, tow trucks, cranes,& fire trucks have complex systems that have features to allow for precesssion control with a 100% duty cycle. A Hyd. excavator pump cost more than most compact tractors. Tractors loaders and backhoes have a system with just a few simple imprvoments, honed spool bores with multi grooved spool lands, load checks for when you are lifting a load that it does not drop when the spool first opens and a regeneration valve usally on a back hoe to allow returning oil in a open center system to be used on demand instead of going to tank. The compact tractor when used with in there capability and caution with heavy loads perform very well. Be carefull if you adjust the system pressure higher than spec it could lead to bent cyl. blown hoses, all that good stuff. not to mention a warranty issue. I have a yard tractor that I increased the pressure 10% and gained about 25% more lift. But thats pushing it and our loads are usally a low pick. with lots of counter weight. I dont recommend any adjustment beyond the manufacture spec. It would be good to have the pressure checked to make sure it is on spec.

  8. #18
    Elite Member TSO's Avatar
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    Massey 1648 HST Cab

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansen Equipment Inc View Post

    Adjusting the pressure higher would help with lifting more,and a little more cycle time until you reach the point of the pumps max flow capacity. Then the pump would need to spin faster or be of a larger displacement. You cant change the limited RPM with out damage to the tractor and a larger pump would be to small for the hyd line, hose, valve etc.so your back to square one. As for operating multi functions and the difficulty in feathering compared to the Kioti,I would say the difference is in the spool its self with a better feathering land at the spools edge. Remember all these tractors are simple hyd systems with simple componets. Heavy equipment, tow trucks, cranes,& fire trucks have complex systems that have features to allow for precesssion control with a 100% duty cycle. A Hyd. excavator pump cost more than most compact tractors. Tractors loaders and backhoes have a system with just a few simple imprvoments, honed spool bores with multi grooved spool lands, load checks for when you are lifting a load that it does not drop when the spool first opens and a regeneration valve usally on a back hoe to allow returning oil in a open center system to be used on demand instead of going to tank. The compact tractor when used with in there capability and caution with heavy loads perform very well. Be carefull if you adjust the system pressure higher than spec it could lead to bent cyl. blown hoses, all that good stuff. not to mention a warranty issue. I have a yard tractor that I increased the pressure 10% and gained about 25% more lift. But thats pushing it and our loads are usally a low pick. with lots of counter weight. I dont recommend any adjustment beyond the manufacture spec. It would be good to have the pressure checked to make sure it is on spec.
    OK. I'm not experiencing the "limp bucket" problem LOL... But I'm wondering how many other owners notice the issues with dual-action loader movements? Hansen, if u get a chance, can you play with the ones on your lot and see if they do it?

    Like I said, I can lift the arms AND curl at the same time, and I can lower the arms AND drop the bucket simultaneously... Although it's sometimes difficult to find just the right spot.

    I can't recall if I've ever been able to lift the arms AND drop the bucket simultaneously (or drop & curl)...

    And like I said, my Kioti didn't have the issue, neither does my buddy's (2) kubota's. That's why I feel it's either a problem with my tractor, or a problem with the design.

    Maybe it's just the joystick itself? Is there a way for me to check if the pressure is up to spec, or does the dealer need to? I'm not really concerned with increasing the pressure to gain more strength, I'm happy with that as it is. Just trying to troubleshoot. Hey, maybe the limp bucket is caused by an un-full oil reservoir, or maybe the reservoir is too small for this loader?

    Sent from my Motorola Photon using TractorByNet for Android
    Massey 1648 HST Cab - Hustler Z Diesel 66" mower
    John Deere Gator 620i - 2007 F450 Crew
    6ft bucket * 5ft Tooth/Tine Bucket * QA Forks * 8ft Rhino BackBlade
    7ft Rhino BoxBlade * 7ft LandPride Rake * 6.5ft KK HD Box Disc * Middle buster plow
    WorkSaver SG-26 StumpGrinder * Wallenstein BX42s Chipper * 8ft Ford Brush-Mower
    7.5ft QA snow plow

    Massey = 440 hrs @ 4/15/15

  9. #19
    Elite Member TSO's Avatar
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu5i...e_gdata_player

    I made a quick vid...

    Sent from my Motorola Photon using TractorByNet for Android
    Massey 1648 HST Cab - Hustler Z Diesel 66" mower
    John Deere Gator 620i - 2007 F450 Crew
    6ft bucket * 5ft Tooth/Tine Bucket * QA Forks * 8ft Rhino BackBlade
    7ft Rhino BoxBlade * 7ft LandPride Rake * 6.5ft KK HD Box Disc * Middle buster plow
    WorkSaver SG-26 StumpGrinder * Wallenstein BX42s Chipper * 8ft Ford Brush-Mower
    7.5ft QA snow plow

    Massey = 440 hrs @ 4/15/15

  10. #20
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    Default Re: R4041 Loader Issue LB4101

    This is 100% combination operator and loader joystick. These joysticks are not really intended to be used as a multifunction (same time) setup IMO. Your video shows this as in sometimes it works and others not. That is the operater, but not that it is the operater's fault really. The valves just are not intended to be used simutainiusly is all.

    One of the reasons that I think that it's funny when people want a true 3rd function on these tractors vs just a diverter. They think that they want to work 3 functions at the same time when in reality it is about all you can do to get 2 to work together.

    On the positive side, there isn't anything wrong with the tractors.
    Brian
    Top and Tilt Kits by Fit Rite Hydraulics

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