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  1. #1
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    Default Max series Tractors

    OK so I'm going to say something that will probably offend the Mahindra loyal, but here goes. I have looked extensively at these tractors, talked to several dealers and have come to the conclusion that this is a grand marketing scheme. The premise that this is a whole new line of tractors with great innovation is to me, a load of bunk. I look at a 1998 Mitsu/Cub tractor and there is nothing but a sheet metal change and very little else. Don't get me wrong the little Mitsubishi tractors are great little tractors but hardly cutting edge. What is worse is Mahindra's decision to go with KMW loaders. There are no steel tubes on the Max 22 and 25 loaders, just a spaghetti of hydraulic hoses. There are also no gussets on any of the pivot pins on the Max 22 and 25 only the Korean made loaders on the Max 28 have steel tubing and gussets on the pivot pins.

    I guess I'm just severely dissapointed to see Mahindra doing business like Bose, with lots of marketing and very little substance to back it up. As a second I'd like to stress my disappointment in KMW, an American made loader should be better in every way not good enough or inferior to others... no wonder we are hemorrhaging jobs to Asia.

    I have talked to at least 7 Mahindra dealers and was told by most of them that Mahindra hired a high ranking person from each of the major Manufacturers Kubota, Deere, New Holland (LS) and Agco (Massey/Iseki) ( Mahindra and the last two in the size category I'm speaking of are rebranders, not really manufacturer's) and spent a ton of money on research for these tractors. My guess is that they are all marketing guys and they have created a slick configuration software program to market the tractors but have spent very little dollars on making a great innovative tractor.

    Will this strategy work? Maybe, but not on me... Until Mahindra shows me otherwise I see that Kubota and Deere have NOTHING to worry about.

    Love them or hate them I see Deere as a great innovator, their stuff is wayyyyy overpriced but they have a lot of great ideas. Kubota is stingy with features but pretty bullet proof and its no wonder they are Number 1(for new) and 2 (For used) in sales in the US. I like a lot about the Kioti's but keep getting mixed messages about their reliability from their dealers.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Max series Tractors

    Hi NE Tractor, welcome to TBN. It's a little odd to have just a handful of posts and then step into the Mahindra community with a bunch of half truths. Sort of like a Giants fan walking into the Dodger's dugout and giving them heck....but I guess that is your choice.

    We have been expanding in the NE and have had months upon months of record sales, so I guess we should expect some pushback. And that is OK. Regarding our marketing team, it is robust and active, and they push our strong points, like the 30 day money back Max deal, the 5 year warranty, the huge lift capacities, the tight turning radius, the full frame, the bigger tires...yep, the marketing team is doing a great job. You are aware that worldwide Mahindra sells more tractors than any other brand, and I do believe that Mahindra is now #3 in the USA in the <80hp tractor market? Marketing has been part of that.

    As for half truths, it is true that some early Mitsu based Mahindra tractors were nearly identical to some of the Cub models. I think the 2615 had a twin, as did the 2015. Of course different loaders, tires, seats, etc., but the basic tractor was the same. It is not true that the current ones resemble or are even close to the older Cubs. Not that it was bad in the first place, the Mitsu-Cubs were great, but the Max models are very different. They are built in Japan by Mitsubishi, so that part of your "truth" is correct. Are they a little heavy duty to be called SCUTs? That has been debated to death, and we say no, this is what a SCUT should be. I can understand that since we have no clear definition of SCUT that we can argue forever on this point. But the argument that it is marketing without substance does not fly since our marketing is full of substance. We do not hide that our Max tractors are a little stronger and heavier, we brag about it. It is very clear to the customer, and sales have been brisk.

    As for KMW using hoses, that is good and bad. I too prefer steel lines with minimal hoses, but it does create more connections, and connections are where leaks occur most. Also, a hose can be bought at any hydraulic shop in any town, if you crush a steel tube you are generally at the dealer and most dealers do not stock extra loader tubes. So there is a trade off on tube vs hose. What I really appreciate about KMW is the design and testing that they do. When they design a loader system, they install it on a tractor and hydraulically abuse the system until something breaks, be it the tractor or the loader. Then they re-evaluate and redesign and go at it again until they are satisfied in the design, considering of course duty cycle, max load, etc. They aren't perfect, but they are pretty impressive.

    As far as re-branders, we confess that the Max and 16 series are built by Mitsubishi in Japan. We do that at great expense. If you look at worldwide numbers for Mahindra, which I believe to be over 200k units annually, it is a small portion that Mahindra does not build. The "rebrand" percentage is higher in the USA due to the market for CUTs and SCUTs which really aren't such a big deal in most of the world. John Deere, NH, Massey and others have rebranded tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Japanese tractors over the years. It's a great way (other than expensive) to get a top quality compact tractor, while allowing the core production line to keep cranking out the larger units.

    As far as Deere and Kubota having nothing to worry about...it is true that the gap between 2nd and 3rd place for tractor sales in the USA is large. It's like a runner in a race where JD and Kubota are neck and neck at the finish line, then there is a gap and we see Mahindra with a bunch of other brands close behind. So as far as USA market share, it is Mahindra's hope that JD and Kubota will just be comfortable where they are and ignore Mahindra...nothing to worry about...just ignore us please.
    Dave
    Dave's Tractor, Inc.
    Red Bluff, California

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Max series Tractors

    I don't put much stock in someone who starts a post that he is going to make people mad but he's going to say it anyway. There is a word for that and it's troll.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Max series Tractors

    Quote Originally Posted by ThreePuttPar View Post
    I don't put much stock in someone who starts a post that he is going to make people mad but he's going to say it anyway. There is a word for that and it's troll.
    Call it what you will, I apologize I should have said It was not an attack on Mahindra buyers. I was just making an observation not trying to tick anyone off it was more an assessment of Mahindra and what I feel is more marketing and less of a commitment to quality. If I can provoke someone to make or do something better, I'm going to do it. If you can tell me, show me where my assessments were wrong, My ears and eyes are open.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Max series Tractors

    Quote Originally Posted by DavesTractor View Post
    Hi NE Tractor, welcome to TBN. It's a little odd to have just a handful of posts and then step into the Mahindra community with a bunch of half truths. Sort of like a Giants fan walking into the Dodger's dugout and giving them heck....but I guess that is your choice.

    We have been expanding in the NE and have had months upon months of record sales, so I guess we should expect some pushback. And that is OK. Regarding our marketing team, it is robust and active, and they push our strong points, like the 30 day money back Max deal, the 5 year warranty, the huge lift capacities, the tight turning radius, the full frame, the bigger tires...yep, the marketing team is doing a great job. You are aware that worldwide Mahindra sells more tractors than any other brand, and I do believe that Mahindra is now #3 in the USA in the <80hp tractor market? Marketing has been part of that.

    As for half truths, it is true that some early Mitsu based Mahindra tractors were nearly identical to some of the Cub models. I think the 2615 had a twin, as did the 2015. Of course different loaders, tires, seats, etc., but the basic tractor was the same. It is not true that the current ones resemble or are even close to the older Cubs. Not that it was bad in the first place, the Mitsu-Cubs were great, but the Max models are very different. They are built in Japan by Mitsubishi, so that part of your "truth" is correct. Are they a little heavy duty to be called SCUTs? That has been debated to death, and we say no, this is what a SCUT should be. I can understand that since we have no clear definition of SCUT that we can argue forever on this point. But the argument that it is marketing without substance does not fly since our marketing is full of substance. We do not hide that our Max tractors are a little stronger and heavier, we brag about it. It is very clear to the customer, and sales have been brisk.

    As for KMW using hoses, that is good and bad. I too prefer steel lines with minimal hoses, but it does create more connections, and connections are where leaks occur most. Also, a hose can be bought at any hydraulic shop in any town, if you crush a steel tube you are generally at the dealer and most dealers do not stock extra loader tubes. So there is a trade off on tube vs hose. What I really appreciate about KMW is the design and testing that they do. When they design a loader system, they install it on a tractor and hydraulically abuse the system until something breaks, be it the tractor or the loader. Then they re-evaluate and redesign and go at it again until they are satisfied in the design, considering of course duty cycle, max load, etc. They aren't perfect, but they are pretty impressive.

    As far as re-branders, we confess that the Max and 16 series are built by Mitsubishi in Japan. We do that at great expense. If you look at worldwide numbers for Mahindra, which I believe to be over 200k units annually, it is a small portion that Mahindra does not build. The "rebrand" percentage is higher in the USA due to the market for CUTs and SCUTs which really aren't such a big deal in most of the world. John Deere, NH, Massey and others have rebranded tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Japanese tractors over the years. It's a great way (other than expensive) to get a top quality compact tractor, while allowing the core production line to keep cranking out the larger units.

    As far as Deere and Kubota having nothing to worry about...it is true that the gap between 2nd and 3rd place for tractor sales in the USA is large. It's like a runner in a race where JD and Kubota are neck and neck at the finish line, then there is a gap and we see Mahindra with a bunch of other brands close behind. So as far as USA market share, it is Mahindra's hope that JD and Kubota will just be comfortable where they are and ignore Mahindra...nothing to worry about...just ignore us please.

    Dave, I appreciate your defense of Mahindra But you can correct me if I'm wrong ( if you have the New England sales numbers) but in the north east I travel daily through all the New England states, I see the same tractors on the Dealers lots here till they are sun bleached pink. I see nothing leaving the lot from the dealer close to my house in New Hampshire that I drive by every day. I got a quote on a Max 28XL from four different dealers here and they were all over 15,500 Tractor Loader (which is why I made the statement Kubota and Deere have nothing to worry about) Here you can buy a Kubota 2920 for the same price and it has in my opinion what seems to be a better loader, but as I said the 28's loader is much more impressive looking, it was the KMW's I had issue with... I could easily move the pivot pins and feel slop on the 22 and 25's loaders. I just cant see how not having gussets welded around the pivot pin stress points speaks anything to KMW's commitment to quality.

    As I stated I think the Mitsubishi tractors are great, I despise the treadle pedal they use on their hydro(its the same one from 1998) and thats something I would have expected Mahindra to upgrade if they are truly trying to build a better tractor. I want Mahindra to succeed, I hope they come up with innovations to improve the tractor market place. I want them to provoke Kubota and Deere, it will be better for all of us. I can't speak for other parts of the country, but Kioti in New England has done wonders, I believe Kioti is trying to give people more for their dollar. I was disappointed mostly when I looked at the Max 28, I love the size and wanted to love the tractor, but at 15,500.00 the fact that it has no suspension seat (even the Kioti CK20 at 12,000.00 has one) I find to be unfortunate. I believe the Mitsubishi tractor is a great foundation, I just feel building on it with KMW is a bad decision. I have had a 1968 580CK case backhoe for 32 years, with over 10000 hours, never a bent tube, they are all original, but countless blown hydraulic hoses. so forgive me if I'm not seeing the plus side to all hoses.

    Steve

  6. #6
    Veteran Member AchingBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Max series Tractors

    Because your main issue seems to be with the KMW loaders, let me say: My 2615 Mahindra with a 106 KMW loader has almost 600 hrs of use. Conservatively, over half those hours were racked up with the use of the loader. I've checked every pivot pin. Not one of them had a bit of slop. There are no cracks or signs of stress to be seen anywhere you look.

    What we have here is either a John Deere, or a Kubota dealer who is dyed in the wool.
    I thank God for these gifts: 2005 Mahindra 2615 HST w/loader, (485 hours), and 3710 backhoe. Markham tooth bar, Bush Hog SQ60 rotary cutter, Bush Hog 3507 angle blade, Bush Hog LLR84 landscape rake w/gauge wheels, Rankin loader mounted forks, Paumco Quick Spade, Agri-Ease 3 point log splitter.

  7. #7
    Super Star Member murphy1244's Avatar
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    Default Re: Max series Tractors

    Quote Originally Posted by AchingBack View Post
    Because your main issue seems to be with the KMW loaders, let me say: My 2615 Mahindra with a 106 KMW loader has almost 600 hrs of use. Conservatively, over half those hours were racked up with the use of the loader. I've checked every pivot pin. Not one of them had a bit of slop. There are no cracks or signs of stress to be seen anywhere you look.

    What we have here is either a John Deere, or a Kubota dealer who is dyed in the wool.
    yep, been selling them for 7 years he says.
    Murph ------------

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Max series Tractors

    Quote Originally Posted by murphy1244 View Post
    yep, been selling them for 7 years he says.
    I have never sold Kubota tractors or John Deere I sold Massey Ferguson and Kioti tractors So you would both be incorrect. I have my issues with both Massey and Kioti. But would post those issues in those forums. My main issue with Mahindra was that they were pitching the Max series as something new and different and I feel its more the same than different....and again it's an OPINION

  9. #9
    Super Star Member murphy1244's Avatar
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    Default Re: Max series Tractors

    Quote Originally Posted by NE Tractor View Post
    I have never sold Kubota tractors or John Deere I sold Massey Ferguson and Kioti tractors So you would both be incorrect. I have my issues with both Massey and Kioti. But would post those issues in those forums. My main issue with Mahindra was that they were pitching the Max series as something new and different and I feel its more the same than different....and again it's an OPINION
    I said selling I did not say a brand.. I like a lot about the Kioti's but keep getting mixed messages about their reliability from their Dealers?
    Whats that about? You were the dealer. Who you giving mixed messages too?
    Murph ------------

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    Default Re: Max series Tractors

    Quote Originally Posted by AchingBack View Post
    Because your main issue seems to be with the KMW loaders, let me say: My 2615 Mahindra with a 106 KMW loader has almost 600 hrs of use. Conservatively, over half those hours were racked up with the use of the loader. I've checked every pivot pin. Not one of them had a bit of slop. There are no cracks or signs of stress to be seen anywhere you look.

    What we have here is either a John Deere, or a Kubota dealer who is dyed in the wool.
    Not dyed in the wool at all never sold either one, I've just operated several tractors over the years, sold Masseys and Kioti's for a few years...and have seen a lot of good and a lot of bad. When I see a trend that I don't like I'm going to speak up about it, if you don't like it...well I'm sorry it's my opinion and nothing more. I thought that's what this place was about, the sharing of ideas and calling a foul when you see one.

    Let me ask you a question... If McDonald's cut the meat content in their patties and put sawdust instead of meat in their burgers... then ran a huge add campaign telling you it was a Better Burger, would you not say a word and just eat what they fed you?

    I'm a consumer just like you and when I see someone cheapening a product and then calling it better, I for one am going to stand up and say NOT!

    Just to clarify I said the Mitsubishi tractor was a great foundation, and yes my issue is with the KMW loader that Mahindra chose ... NOT the ML106, it's a completely different loader. Your loader has gussets on all the pivot pins and steel hydraulic lines. The 202 loader on the MAX 22 and 25 don't have steel lines , nor do they have gussets on any of the pivot pins, its just a hole punched in the loader frame (if you look at the pivot pins you can see daylight all around where they are supposed to be supported) again the 202 is nothing like your ML 106 .... I also said the loader on the 28 was better, it has steel lines and gussets on the pivot pins (but the dealer told me that loader (made in Korea) was going away in favor of the chintzier (his words not mine) KMW loader.

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