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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Synthetic Oil

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBlack View Post
    It certainly is "opinion or preference". You're confusing specific oil lab tests, with the decision of what lubricant people decide to run in their particular machines. It's 2 totally different things.
    People's preferences are indeed different. But what I am saying is that differences between oils are real and measurable. That takes real performance out of the realm of opinion and into the realm of science. A good synthetic lubricant, properly applied at the viscosity needed by the machine, and with the right additives needed for diesel or gasoline, as the case may be, will not only last much longer itself, but will make the engine last longer also, while also using less fuel, being easier to start in the winter, and needing much less frequent oil changes.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Synthetic Oil

    I buy Amsoil from their website. Cheapest way to get it is to pay an annual fee to become a dealer, even if you never sell any.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Synthetic Oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermio View Post
    People's preferences are indeed different. But what I am saying is that differences between oils are real and measurable. That takes real performance out of the realm of opinion and into the realm of science. A good synthetic lubricant, properly applied at the viscosity needed by the machine, and with the right additives needed for diesel or gasoline, as the case may be, will not only last much longer itself, but will make the engine last longer also, while also using less fuel, being easier to start in the winter, and needing much less frequent oil changes.
    Every thing you say was true, 20 years ago.

    As the synthetic oils evolved, the mineral oils improved with the same technology. With today's lubricants, there is no longer any significant difference in lubricity between dino oils, and synthetic oils, under normal operating conditions.

    Making the better fuel mileage, and engines last longer claims untrue.

    One only needs to look up the specifications and compare them, to see that.

    The only two differences today, are extreme temperatures, and longer intervals.

    If you have proof to support your "real and measurable" claims, outside of those two differences, I would like to see it.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Synthetic Oil

    HowStuffWorks "Synthetic vs. Conventional Motor Oil: Which is Best for Your Needs and Environment's?"
    Is Synthetic Motor Oil Better? | Angies List
    Should You Use Synthetic Oil in Your Vehicle? AutoGuide.com News

    Reference tests: ASTM Tests Performed
    Each oil was subjected to the following ASTM test methodologies:
    • Four-Ball Wear Test (ASTM D4172 Mod.)
    • Total Base Number (ASTM D2896)
    • Cold Cranking Viscosity (ASTM D5293)
    • Thermo-Oxidation Engine Oil Simulation Test (TEOST, ASTM D6335)
    • NOACK Volatility Test (ASTM D5800)

    In the above tests, there are significant differences even between synthetic oils. Reference https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf
    Amsoil

    Amsoil summarizes other tests here: API Comparative Motor Oil Testing

    Want something more independent: Try looking up oiltests.pdf. Though Amsoil was not included, the oils they tested showed huge differences. Mobil 1 performed quite poorly.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Synthetic Oil

    Your first 3 links are opinion pieces, and contain no data. But, they also mostly bolster my argument, that the only real difference today is extreme temperatures, and intervals.

    The Amsoil links you provided, show that the difference in lubricity, as I stated, is not significant.

    l

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Synthetic Oil

    Quote Originally Posted by ray66v View Post
    Your first 3 links are opinion pieces, and contain no data. But, they also mostly bolster my argument, that the only real difference today is extreme temperatures, and intervals.

    The Amsoil links you provided, show that the difference in lubricity, as I stated, is not significant.

    l
    Well, lets see. The oils tested in the report were all synthetic, because Amsoil does not consider conventional oils to be their competition. But even among the oils tested, there was quite a range of results. In the 4-ball wear test, the ratio of best to worst was 4.57. In the cold viscosity test, there was a 70% difference in viscosity. (This directly affects cold cranking amps). In the thermal oxidation test, the worst oil had 8.85 times as much degradation. In the NOACK volatility test, the best to worst ratio was 2.5. If you do not consider these results to be significant, then you and I have a very different idea of the meaning of the word "significant". I guess if you were to perform a job for someone and asked $100 for it, but the client only paid you $12 for your work, you would consider that to be an insignificant difference, as that is about the difference in the thermal oxidation test.

    I also decided to do some more digging. In this report, conventional oils are tested also. Motor Oil Testing Methods

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Synthetic Oil

    Yes, it's insignificant. There is something called the point of diminishing returns.

    Any engine will out last the vehicle today, under normal driving, using conventional oil. If you want to get excited about making yours last longer then that, so be it.

    There is still only a real difference in extreme temperatures, and intervals.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Synthetic Oil

    I would say that my 25000 mile oil change interval is certainly significantly longer than the 3000 miles most people recommend for conventional oils, or the 7500 mile interval generally required by the OEMs. That alone saves me money. And since synthetic oils have lower friction (as evidenced by the 4-ball test), they must improve fuel efficiency, though possibly not by an easily detectable amount. For instance, if they increase fuel economy by 1-2%, that is a significant savings over the life of the car, but since fuel economy varies much more than that based on driving conditions, it would be hard to demonstrate that. However, it is known that conventional oil has more volatile components, which boil off, leaving the less volatile molecules behind. This results in the oil viscosity going up with time, as one of the ASTM tests shows. A thicker oil means more power required to move it, and hence more fuel consumed. This is one reason why long oil drain intervals are not a good idea for conventional oils, no matter how good the additives are. Basically, use of synthetic oils saves money in a variety of ways, and there is no downside.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Synthetic Oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermio View Post
    The differences in oil are not simply a matter of opinion or preference. API (American Petroleum Institute) has a battery of tests that quantitatively measure oil's performance and longevity. The synthetics win against conventional oil every time. I have used synthetics on a 25000 mile oil change basis on all my cars and most of my trucks for almost 40 years. I normally get 250000 miles or more out of my vehicles
    Look at you go! If you're gonna' spread it on... spread it on thick.

    So let we try to follow this story. So you really care about your vehicles, You care so much that... you hold out on changing your oil for 25k miles. That makes a lot of sense.
    You care so much, but not enough to change it at a reasonable interval. Hmm. That sounds like a 'story' from an amsoil salesman.
    You 'normally' get 250k miles from your vehicles. Hmmm, how many millions of miles do you drive?
    How's that oil filter at 25k? At least your story is easy to remember with the convenience of 25k oil for 250k miles cars.

    Sorry. I've read 100 too many amsoil salesmen posts.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Synthetic Oil

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBlack View Post
    Look at you go! If you're gonna' spread it on... spread it on thick.

    So let we try to follow this story. So you really care about your vehicles, You care so much that... you hold out on changing your oil for 25k miles. That makes a lot of sense.
    You care so much, but not enough to change it at a reasonable interval. Hmm. That sounds like a 'story' from an amsoil salesman.
    You 'normally' get 250k miles from your vehicles. Hmmm, how many millions of miles do you drive?
    How's that oil filter at 25k? At least your story is easy to remember with the convenience of 25k oil for 250k miles cars.

    Sorry. I've read 100 too many amsoil salesmen posts.
    No, I don't care about my vehicles, in the sense that you seem to mean. I care about the cost per mile. It is lower with synthetic oils than with conventional petroleum oils. My engines do not show either significant wear nor sludge build-up after 250,000 miles, even with the oil change intervals described. But by then the upholstery is worn, I usually have some rust spots, the transmission is starting to act up, and maybe a few other problems, such as fuel injectors, wheel bearings, etc. And I don't remember saying I changed the filter every 25000 miles. In fact, I said earlier that I changed the filter more often for most of this history. (However, now that Amsoil has filters that can go 25000 miles for some vehicles, I am using such a filter change interval.) And I am not an Amsoil salesman. I have never sold oil in my life. In fact, I started out using Ultron by Pacer Lubricants. I switched to Amsoil when Pacer Lubricants stopped selling to the general public. But I have used synthetic oils on the following vehicles: 1970 Plymouth Duster, 1978 Olds Starfire, 1980 Honda Prelude, 1984 Honda Civic, 1992 Honda Civic, 1999 Subaru Outback, 1999 Saturn SC-1, 1998 Chevrolet Suburban Diesel, 2009 Subaru Legacy, 2005 Ford F-250 Diesel, 2013 Ford F-350 Diesel and my 1980 Kubota B7100 tractor. I have had a few other vehicles that I have used conventional oils on, with a 3000 mile change interval, because they were oil leakers. Synthetic is too expensive to use when there is much oil leakage. But by all means go on using whatever oil you want. Just know that the following quote could easily come from you: "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts." And lotsa luck if you ever need to cold start at -34F. (I have done so. No problem!)

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