Future of New Holland Utility and Compact tractor line.

[GManBart]

OK, so there you have it for inquiring minds about what Messick and CNH dealer are meaning about 15 year old technology. They needed the new/larger platform and better quieter Shibaura engine in an attempt to try and catch back up. Having to promote and sell a product that's a step 15 years backward from its predecessor can be a disappointment for skilled salespersons dealing with experienced customers.

Those changes, in no way, represent even close to 15 years worth of technology.....not even remotely. Take a tractor from 1998, and compare it with a 2013 Boomer, and the differences will be very obvious.

Every time someone asks for specifics about the better technology or better engineering that represents this mythical 15 year advantage to certain brands/models, the only answer we get seems to be HST+/eHydro, a fuel injection comment or two, and the sound of crickets.

 

[pacerron]

Those changes, in no way, represent even close to 15 years worth of technology.....not even remotely. Take a tractor from 1998, and compare it with a 2013 Boomer, and the differences will be very obvious.

Every time someone asks for specifics about the better technology or better engineering that represents this mythical 15 year advantage to certain brands/models, the only answer we get seems to be HST+/eHydro, a fuel injection comment or two, and the sound of crickets.

It is my understanding that tier 4 has more to do with gov regulations than being a true improvement to tractor power, quality or usability.
My dealer told me 3-4 years ago that regulations on farm equipment lag a few years behind those required on over the road diesel vehicles. Tier 4, from what I have read, did raise the price considerably for a like model with tier 3.
Is that correct?

 

[Guesseral]

It is my understanding that tier 4 has more to do with gov regulations than being a true improvement to tractor power, quality or usability.
My dealer told me 3-4 years ago that regulations on farm equipment lag a few years behind those required on over the road diesel vehicles. Tier 4, from what I have read, did raise the price considerably for a like model with tier 3.
Is that correct?

Yes Tier 4 has raised the prices some it depends on the manufacturer and location as to how much. Yes it has a lot to do with government regulations as they relate to emissions, no it was not done to increase the tractor power, quality, or usability.

 

[Harold_J]

Those changes, in no way, represent even close to 15 years worth of technology.....not even remotely. Take a tractor from 1998, and compare it with a 2013 Boomer, and the differences will be very obvious.

Every time someone asks for specifics about the better technology or better engineering that represents this mythical 15 year advantage to certain brands/models, the only answer we get seems to be HST+/eHydro, a fuel injection comment or two, and the sound of crickets.

Forget about technology over 15 years. The 15 yrs backwards CNH_dealer and Messick are talking about are the quieter engine, larger platform, and the cab situation on the early LS versions versus what they already had with the "old" Shibaura NH's and Fords.

 

[daugen]

Tim/TSO, you have a Shibarau (sp?) diesel in your high end ztr.
How does it run? Did you compare it to the B&S, Kohler or Kubota equivalents?
an as an aside, curious why Kawasaki never got into the small diesel market. They certainly make a superior
gasoline engine and is usually the premium option for gas equipment. Sorry Kohler...

It really would be helpful to get a better handle on the Asian builders, and yes, even now the Chinese.
My understanding is that quality started in Japan, was copied well by the South Koreans, even improved upon though usually sold at a lower price point, and then when it came to China, it was an impossible maze of unpronounceable names where engineering seemed to start with the small motorcycles, and just got larger. And now there are about five good Chinese engine companies I can actually recognize, like Lifan.

Let me not forget India, clearly the engineering there was told to keep eating their twinkies, because Mahindras are known for their weight and ruggedness.

Anyone want to try to write up a quality pecking order?
Pretty hard not to put big green on top. But don't tell that to the Fendt dealer. Which really makes it confusing, as we get so few European tractors here. I wonder why.

 

[TSO]

Yeah, I have a 3cy Shibaura 25hp in my ZTR. It's a nice engine, smooth. I had another 27hp 3cyl Shibaura in my mid 90's Ford Commercial mower. That engine was nice as well. The engine compartment had some design flaws though, which led to overheating problems and ultimately blew a head gasket (which wasn't a cheap repair!). My last tractor was a Kioti with a Daedong diesel. (The same diesel you find in some of the TYM built Mahindra tractors). I feel my Mitsubishi licensed (LS BUILT) 4cyl is smoother running/sounding than the Daedong, even the larger 4cyl Daedong's I tested when I was shopping around for my tractor. But this Mitsu "feels" every bit as good and refined as the others, just not as "smooth" as the Shibaura's I've owned ... which could have more to do with the exhaust characteristics than anything else.

I don't have a problem with LS/C-NH going to Shibaura engines for the Tier4 switch. I contacted LS corporate directly asking them why the change, they told me they were not interested in building a Tier 4 engine at this time, and chose to buy the Shibaura. That's fine with me either way, I believe both engines are equally competent.

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I'm going to go back and re-post something I posted earlier, which I think fits my attitude on this topic perfectly, without needing to type it again:

I just want to point out that since MessickFarmEqu is a dealer, his opinion SHOULD lean a little more toward factual content than just personal feelings (that's my opinion anyways ). When he says something about a product he sells, and states "it's not a very good machine," I'd like to think he should be expected to explain his statements.

And I would truly like to know all the negative things about the LS built Boomers ... Especially the problems (if any) that customers have found, and what, in particular, makes them them worse than the Shibaura models. I'd also like to know what makes them 10-15 years behind technologically, compared to others.

I won't be offended if/when he points out negatives ... It's a tractor, not my kid lol.

Someone mentioned that the larger platform was an improvement, and I would agree. I have the "Boomer 50" and I would like to see it expanded. However, THIS IS NOT TECHNOLOGY !!! It's ergonomics and comfort design. It doesn't apply to this elusive 10-15 years behind technologically statement that was said before

 

[pacerron]

Well, I have a 65 HP CNH that was built in Feb of 2010. The engine and tractor both were manufactured in Pelli, Italy and I have worked it hard with no problems. It is extremely quiet compared to my old 3910 Ford.
I looked and priced a JD that had the closest specs and it was made in India. Did not like it at all as far as feel and solidity when test driving it. Not even a cover on the 4WD transfer shaft underneath. When I buy I compare everything and get underneath to see the structure and how things are protected from crops, etc. I realize this is a bit bigger than the Boomer line you have been discussing, but it is small for HP and other averages in the "Utility" tractor lines.
My tractors don't get washed and waxed to look all pretty. A blowgun on an air hose is their usual reward for doing a good days work and wiping of grease around the fittings with a rag. A shiny waxed hood glaring in the sun when working from east to west is a negative thing in my opinion.

 

[TSO]

Well, I have a 65 HP CNH that was built in Feb of 2010. The engine and tractor both were manufactured in Pelli, Italy and I have worked it hard with no problems. It is extremely quiet compared to my old 3910 Ford.
I looked and priced a JD that had the closest specs and it was made in India. Did not like it at all as far as feel and solidity when test driving it. Not even a cover on the 4WD transfer shaft underneath. When I buy I compare everything and get underneath to see the structure and how things are protected from crops, etc. I realize this is a bit bigger than the Boomer line you have been discussing, but it is small for HP and other averages in the "Utility" tractor lines.
My tractors don't get washed and waxed to look all pretty. A blowgun on an air hose is their usual reward for doing a good days work and wiping of grease around the fittings with a rag. A shiny waxed hood glaring in the sun when working from east to west is a negative thing in my opinion.

Nearly every time I work my tractor it gets filthy ... and then I reward it with a nice cleaning with a spray down from my power-washer. Never used any wax myself. I find it easier to keep the tractor well maintained when it's clean, that way I can keep track of any potential damage, leaks, and keep my grease points exposed to keep them lubed.

I think your tractor uses the Iveco diesel, which is now part of Fiat (C-NH, etc ...). I wondering if your rig might actually be an LS too. I'm not sure if it's the U series or the P series tho. I could be wrong, but it looks alot like the LS P7010.

 

[xtn]

I also have a Boomer 50 HST. But I've got a real New Holland branded one. Not one of those cheap LS knockoffs. :duh:

Meh. Would I prefer to have gotten substantially the same unit, with rear remotes standard and a higher capacity loader all for less money? Of course. I was a tractor newbie. But I'm happy enough with it. I paid $20,600 for it two years ago (inferior loader included) and it does the jobs I ask of it. Other than one pinhole hose leak, which my dealer came and fixed on site for free, it has been completely trouble free. It's a good machine. I don't dedicate a lot of extra time to staying up nights with regret.

I also leaned towards the Mahindra 5035... if the budget had been more.

xtn

 

[Guesseral]

I also have a Boomer 50 HST. But I've got a real New Holland branded one. Not one of those cheap LS knockoffs. :duh:

Meh. Would I prefer to have gotten substantially the same unit, with rear remotes standard and a higher capacity loader all for less money? Of course. I was a tractor newbie. But I'm happy enough with it. I paid $20,600 for it two years ago (inferior loader included) and it does the jobs I ask of it. Other than one pinhole hose leak, which my dealer came and fixed on site for free, it has been completely trouble free. It's a good machine. I don't dedicate a lot of extra time to staying up nights with regret.

I also leaned towards the Mahindra 5035... if the budget had been more.

xtn

$20,600.00 that isn't a bad price even w/o the rear remotes and well stuff, it is still a great price.