Ford 1700, any help?

[JB4310]

Originally Posted by JC-jetro

Yes John. I'm here. I just got done with my chores and have the boys in bed. I think I may know what the problem is. Let me collect my thoughts and post part of the manual for you and try to explain about the charging system. we'll be back. JC

I appreciate the quick response but take your time, I gotta hit the hay tonight, have a challenging job tomorrow. I suspect the problem was there from day one which for me was just three days ago as I never saw the BAT idiot light on for test, didn't even notice there was a light in there till today when we noticed it was cranking slowly and started poking around, got about 25 starts out of that new battery and some of those were long cranking sessions as I was trying to start without glow plugs.

[JC-jetro]

Originally Posted by JB4310

Well I guess I spoke to soon, JC are you still out there!!! help! charging system down, new battery run down.
I'll understand if you had enough of me, but maybe you can help with a quick diagnosis, I'm not a mechanic but am pretty good at keeping things working, I do have a multi meter (analog, got a digital but have not figured it out) know how to do the basics, volts, continuity, opens and shorts.
The battery light never went on, checked the bulb and it's good checked the socket and it only has 10 volts with key on no change when running, I swapped the bulb with the oil light socket and it works, here's where it gets weird for me, I would think the bulb would light dimly with 10 volts, but weirder the battery idiot light socket has two wires, I'm naturally thinking one is hot one is ground since it's mounted in rubber, well one of the wires goes to the right side of the fuse panel and fuses are good but when the fuse is out there is still 10 volts to the socket, how can that be with only one wire going to the socket?
anyway tried to check alternator for output but not sure how, put meter to DC volts, put NEG on ground and tried POS on the 2 big posts and got nothing, tried smaller wires and got just 12 volts when engine running, I think that is just reading the battery, there's a big old looking regulator under the dash, where do I start. Thanks John

John,

I tired to explain it before also. In cars you put the key in, turn the key clockwise in"on" position and then turn a bit further to crank, after engine started you let go off the key and it jumps back to on position by spring action and not to the original spot where you inserted the key. If you inspect your tractor key hole, you'll see they mark "Off" position right at 12:00 o'clock, on @ 1:00 o'clock and start at 2:00 O'clock. Glow plug position is at 10:00 o"clock. key movement from glow plug to off and from start to on has spring return. if you fail to keep the key in "on" position after the start then the charging current will not be activated. it is very easy to turn the key to "off" position and engine will not die as diesel does not have ignition system like gas engine. valves and injector timing is set and heat of compression ignites the fuel. I bit you, you left the key in off position after start. read the page below, specially the second important notice below. These are from the manual.







It's kind of getting late here so give the above recommendation a try. if I did not work then we'll walk you thru figuring out charging system and other questions you had.

Good night.. JC over and out.

[JB4310]

No it's definitely not that, I caught that tip in one of your first posts, I think it's the alternator or the regulator, just have to figure out where to start, is your manual in depth as to detailed component testing? John, edit: OK I'll check back tomarrow.

[Soundguy]

Yes, it is the pump shaft seal I was refering to. As to how far the engine would / could fill up is directly related to the location of the fuel tank to the injector pump.

On my older and bigger diesels.. like my ford 5000 and NH 7610s.. the diesel tank is about 21 gallons, and sets higher than the engine.. thus.. if you get a shaft seal failure.. gravity flow will try to equall the liquid levels out... if ya got a full tank of fuel.. most of it finds the oil pan if you aren't lucky.

On a smaller unit like yours.. or if your fuel tank is underslung.. or lower than the engine.. it may not be an issue.. etc..

soundguy

Originally Posted by JC-jetro

Soundguy,

I'm glad you were able to retrieve the metal rod(dipstick) with no damage to the gears. After I saw your pic I then looked at my manual and sure enough it is a metal dispstick like yours. Surely one can come apart from the cap by some sort of abuse. For some reason I had a Brain hiccup and had a vision of that cap and dispstick on 1700 same as my Honda lawn mower which has a moldedd cap and graduated dipstick all one piece.

Well, once more...You're right on the money..boy What a surprize !!

By the way, I did not get your comment about the injector pump. The injector on 1700 is external to the engine and uses same type of crankcase oil but it is separate and not common with the engine (I.e. engine oil does not lubricate the injector pump). injector pump takes bout 1/2 cup of oil to fill .I suppose if the main shaft seal on the injector pump fails, then that oil can go to timing gear cover but can hardly raise oil level in the crankcase by much. By that time you're "done.. did it" and the injector locked up. May be you are saying some how getting diesel fuel in to crankcase. Please clarify. Thanks.

[JC-jetro]

Originally Posted by JB4310

No it's definitely not that, I caught that tip in one of your first posts, I think it's the alternator or the regulator, just have to figure out where to start, is your manual in depth as to detailed component testing? John, edit: OK I'll check back tomarrow.

John,

You had many questions all over the place. I'll try to address them in some half organized method. I'll have it in a bullet form. A lot are general in nature and may or may not help.

Electrical:

1.We're dealing with DC( direct current) rather than AC alternating current.
2.Alternator generate AC electricity that need to be converted to DC. This is achieved by a rectifier bridge (diode) to convert AC to DC. In GM alternator it is called diode-trio. On most alternators diode is very easy to replace. I have not had a need to check it on 1700 but most likely it is in the alternator.
3.Overcharging and undercharging is bad for the battery and the regulator will adjust the charging current same as set point on T-stat on your home furnace. Regulator are designed solid state or mechanical/electrical like you have.
4.You can measure charging voltage at the battery with engine on with you multi-meter, red to positive .. black to negative and set the dial to volt, DC and low range if you have on your meter. What it can not tell you is if your alternator properly convert AC to DC. I bought a battery/alternator tester 25 years ago from JC Penny and darn thing still works. It identifies if the diode is bad and never failed me even once. I can not remember the range now but it identifies from 11.something to 13.something as a proper voltage with engine running, and if the diode light did not come on I knew I was good with AC to DC. I recommend you buy a cheapy one from your auto store.
5.Elec/mechanical regulator have test procedure that is different from different manufacturer. I do not have the particulars on your model.
6.On some design the AC to DC conversion is done at the regulator and not the alternator. If that is the case the regulator need to be changed.
7.I just checked the cheesy IT shop manual that I have and it did indicate that the diode is internal to the alternator and regulator does voltage.
8.a simple link for the continuity test.
Home Electrical Guide: How To Test for Continuity - ACME HOW TO.com
9.a link for voltage reading:
Voltage Readings

you said you had enough juice to crank the engine 25 times. Be very careful not destroy your starter by over working it. Use glow plug at all times. The procedure to check your circuit and sensor is at follow.
Put the key in (off) position, turn (CCW, Left, Heat) to turn the glow plug, at that point 2 red lights(oil and charging circuit) should illuminate along by moving the heat needle from Hot(Normal position) to cold. That verifies all your wires to 3 component (charging, temp and pressure is properly terminated.). Then look at the inspection hole.. when wire turns red, glow plug is happy, turn the key (CCW, right to on position and proceed to go further to the right to start. Upon starting 2 lights should go out indicating your charging system is okay and oil sensor is satisfied. Temp needle will slowly climb up to the middle. At that point make sure key remain in ON position for the duration of engine operation so charging and safety to remain operation.

Do the above, think about it a bit and give us a call back. We'll be here.

JC,

[JC-jetro]

Originally Posted by Soundguy

Yes, it is the pump shaft seal I was refering to. As to how far the engine would / could fill up is directly related to the location of the fuel tank to the injector pump.

On my older and bigger diesels.. like my ford 5000 and NH 7610s.. the diesel tank is about 21 gallons, and sets higher than the engine.. thus.. if you get a shaft seal failure.. gravity flow will try to equall the liquid levels out... if ya got a full tank of fuel.. most of it finds the oil pan if you aren't lucky.

On a smaller unit like yours.. or if your fuel tank is underslung.. or lower than the engine.. it may not be an issue.. etc..

soundguy

Sounduy,

Capisce.. I let the ole schnoz get the whiff off the dipstick once in while. That was a good thing to know
My fuel tank is not underslung, I reckon it's good for a pump prime but not so good to flood the crankcase.... Can't win them all.

JC,

[Soundguy]

And your tank isn't as big in capacity either.. that makes a difference... Only having 5.. maybee 10 gallons is less fluid pressure than 21 gallons setting up there.

And since I always fill my fuel tank after mowing to keep out moisture / air.. it's always setting there.

I used to have some schematics for ford alternator systems but for the life of me can't find them right now.. still looking though.. msot of my units have gennies.. WAY easier to work on .. especially if you only need a few amps of power..

soundguy

[JB4310]

Originally Posted by JC-jetro

John,
You had many questions all over the place. I'll try to address them in some half organized method. I'll have it in a bullet form. A lot are general in nature and may or may not help
.JC,

O,K, sorry I was all over the place JC, I know most of that stuff you referred to, except testing the diode, and that the DC comes from AC, that's new to me.
It really comes down to confirming first that the alternator is or is not putting out (which I suspect it is not) if it is then from my past experience it would most likely be the regulator.
Do you have a simple generic test for alternator, there's only 2 large posts and a couple of small wires on it and like I said I tried reading DC volts off both the large posts where I would think the output would come from, had black probe of meter to ground and red on each of the posts, nothing from the larger ones and only 12 volts from the smaller ones which I believe was just reading back from the battery.
Should I maybe trying to read AC volts (if it is pre diode) battery reads just 12 volts when running or not, the idiot light (bulb is known good) never came on for test or for failure of charging system so maybe that's a clue, is there a fuse or relay that could cause that situation.
Also, unrelated, I read where you referred to there being oil in the injector pump if so I should check/change it, I took for granted that it was lubed from the engine oil like on my other diesels, I do see 2 phillips screws, one above the other that look like they could be drain and a level holes?
When I referred to cranking engine 25 times I meant I started it that many times, maybe only 15-20 times (exaggeration factored in) since I put the new 820 CCA battery in, the last few starts I noticed it cranking slowly, then not enough to start, had to charge the battery with a plug in 10 amp charger, and yes I was trying to start it some times with out the glow plugs, I wont do that any more unless it's already warmed up. Thanks in advance, JB

[JC-jetro]

Originally Posted by JB4310

O,K, sorry I was all over the place JC, I know most of that stuff you referred to, except testing the diode, and that the DC comes from AC, that's new to me.
Thanks in advance, JB

John,

we're back from school function 45 minutes ago. I'll try tonight to post a procedure for you to check alternator and answer some of your questions. If I'm not ale tonight then I'll do it tomorow for sure,

JC,

[JC-jetro]

Originally Posted by JB4310

O,K, sorry I was all over the place JC, I know most of that stuff you referred to, except testing the diode, and that the DC comes from AC, that's new to me.
It really comes down to confirming first that the alternator is or is not putting out (which I suspect it is not) if it is then from my past experience it would most likely be the regulator.
Do you have a simple generic test for alternator, there's only 2 large posts and a couple of small wires on it and like I said I tried reading DC volts off both the large posts where I would think the output would come from, had black probe of meter to ground and red on each of the posts, nothing from the larger ones and only 12 volts from the smaller ones which I believe was just reading back from the battery.
Should I maybe trying to read AC volts (if it is pre diode) battery reads just 12 volts when running or not, the idiot light (bulb is known good) never came on for test or for failure of charging system so maybe that's a clue, is there a fuse or relay that could cause that situation.
Also, unrelated, I read where you referred to there being oil in the injector pump if so I should check/change it, I took for granted that it was lubed from the engine oil like on my other diesels, I do see 2 phillips screws, one above the other that look like they could be drain and a level holes?
When I referred to cranking engine 25 times I meant I started it that many times, maybe only 15-20 times (exaggeration factored in) since I put the new 820 CCA battery in, the last few starts I noticed it cranking slowly, then not enough to start, had to charge the battery with a plug in 10 amp charger, and yes I was trying to start it some times with out the glow plugs, I wont do that any more unless it's already warmed up. Thanks in advance, JB

John,

I'll try to answer in bullets.

1)diode is electronic version of a check valve. It only allows flow in one direction weather it is fluid or electricity. AC current is sinusoidal (up and down curve) where diode will change it moving in one direction. 60 Hz or cycle comes from alternating current changing polarity 60 times a second. You'll never hear 60 cycles DC as DC does not change polarity. Checking diode is very simple. Using an ohmmeter if you touch 2 poles of a diode it should show high resistance one way (open) and very low resistance when you switch the lead (short).
2)Normal regulator voltage should be between 13.8-14.8 , lower or higher may indicate regulator problem.
3) Attached below you'll see a pic of the alternator, Out put terminal is B. Below you'll find a test procedure from the IT book. It is not very simple and it requires a test load. Same as what they do to test your battery under a load to see how quickly it looses ground.
4)The diode is inside the alternator but they don't give straight forward procedure to test the diode. They just conclude after series of test that alternator may be faulty. Not very clear. A tester as I explained may do the trick and only thing you do is to connect the tester lead to the battery and it'll diagnose voltage and bad diode.
5)You can not read AC pre diode as you explained. diode is internal to the alternator and you can not isolate ac from DC simply and plus it would not give you any useful info anyway.
6)Oil in the injector pump is quite important. Injector is one pricey component. Follow the thread below for changing injector oil.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/n...-bleeding.html
7)By the way .. did you do the starting procedure like I explained in the last thread and what was the result.
Give it a try and let us know,
JC



Test procedure: