Ford 6000 ~ 1959 - good tractor?

[jfh0jfh]

The SOS can creep.. that would be a reasonable explanation to a foot being run over.

A gear tractor popping out of gear is 100% different from a gear tractor popping into gear.

A SOS tractor is a geared tranny.. just has hydro clutches and what not. There needs to be positive slide cable movement to change between gears.

Lots of people that get hurt around tractors because they do stupid things.. then when they have to explain it they blame it on a mechanical failure. I've seen alot of 'clutch slipped'.. and what not that turne dout to be 'foot slipped off clutch'.. etc.

The biggest probelms I have seen come from tractors with hand clutches... Like a jd B.. etc... Farmer drives up to gate, pulls clutch out, but leaves trans in gear.. gets down, unlocks gate, hops back on tractor, pops clutch in and goes... now.. that's an accident waiting to happen.. the combination of vibration and weak detents can and WILL cause that hand clutch to pop back to engaged NO problem.. I've seen it on my B before i serviced it to correct it... And that's not even a true example of 'popping into gear'.. as the tractor is already in gear, and is just 'clutched'. etc.

It's a sad fact.. but shortcuts cause accidents.. and not everybody is man enough to admit that or take personal responsibility... In fact.. personal responsibility is becoming a thing of the past in our society... less of it every day... People are always looking for something to be someone/something else's fault...

Soundguy

Not sure why you'd mention a gear tractor. My point exactly: it's not relevant to this discussion. And of course it's different in vs out.

I couldn't agree more about misplacing blame. Farm folks here get hurt (and killed) more often than some might believe. The soft tire on a clay hillside; the missing PTO guard; the u-Joint on the PH digger that's been bad for a few months; the emergency brake that hasn't really held for years.

A friend just destroyed the side of his truck (a near total) because he reached for his rolling can of snuff on the floor. All he can talk about is how our neighbor put his fence too close to the road.

Absolutely: short-cuts, lack of maintenance, lateness, tiredness, slippery conditions all cause accidents.

That said, I believe my neighbors when they say the SOS jumped into gear, These are farmers who know the difference between creep and a moving lever.

More important, I've had 3 pieces of equipment with self-moving levers. The worst was the Power-Shift JD (510 backhoe). And those have the additional feature of a self-disengaging park.

None of this bothers me: if you run old equipment you just need to slow down and pay more attention. The close calls I've had have been entirely my fault.

 

[jfh0jfh]

One of the problems with the earliest models using the SOS was they did tend to find their way into "1st gear" from park while idling. A slight movement of the tractor (ie a bumping it while hooking up an implement while tractor was idling in park) would send it on its way without an operator. I saw the aftermath of that particular problem. (A nearly destroyed barn)

It had nothing to do with the hydraulics and/or an accumulator.

This is EXACTLY what my neighbor said. If he rolled a hay wagon into it to hard it was almost guaranteed to jump into gear.

My JD Power-Shift was the same: it would engage from a rapid stop of the loader. And once it engange from idling (no operator), drove part way out of the barn, stalled and rolled back. It was a 10-ton machine so that could have been nasty.

 

[Soundguy]

One of the problems with the earliest models using the SOS was they did tend to find their way into "1st gear" from park while idling. A slight movement of the tractor (ie a bumping it while hooking up an implement while tractor was idling in park) would send it on its way without an operator. I saw the aftermath of that particular problem. (A nearly destroyed barn)

It had nothing to do with the hydraulics and/or an accumulator.

That is akin to the SOS creep i referred to.. and if encountered it was not a problem that 'went away'.. it was one that needed to be repaired.. thus fords large recall and replacement of 'red' SOS trans with 'blue' sos trans in the large field replacement campaign.

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

Not sure why you'd mention a gear tractor. .

The SOS trans is a gear trans with hyd clutches.. ( IE.. UNLIKE a HST trans.. )

Soundguy

 

[jfh0jfh]

That is akin to the SOS creep i referred to.. and if encountered it was not a problem that 'went away'.. it was one that needed to be repaired.. thus fords large recall and replacement of 'red' SOS trans with 'blue' sos trans in the large field replacement campaign.

Soundguy

You lost me here. HST creep is one thing - the "gear" is engaged.

This is an issue of the transmission moving from Park to 1st gear. Going from a neutral position to 1st gear - an enganged gear. It isn't creep when the transmission and lever move from neutral to 1st.

I saw and follow your other message about HST vs SOS and gears w/ clutches. But I don't see how this can be called creep.

 

[Soundguy]

What actuates a clutch in a powershift tranny? Hyds.. What controlls hyds? valves. What happens whn a valve malfunctions and lets a clutch drag and power to be transmitted to the wheels.. the machine creeps. Now imagine all of this with the gear selector in N/P...

I'm not saying it's 100% impossible for an SOS to have it's lever spontaniously flip from N/P to a gear setting and take off.. like something from the movie maximum overdrive.. however.. On the flip side.. you are the first person I've ever heard of reporting that.. and I hang out with way more ford people than any other flavor of tractor. While I don't own an SOS.. I've ran them.. and have avoide downing them due to picky maintenance needs, and feeding and care costs, vs a gear trans.. plus their less than stellar reputation in the loengevity department.. and lastly.. because they have so many non metal wear parts in them vs a gear trans... which.. with a little maintenance can litterally go for decades without much attention...

If you are real scared about an SOS inadvertantly jumping and running.. flip the traction disconnect as soon as you step off... that will keep it in place unless you are on a hill.

Soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

That is akin to the SOS creep i referred to.. and if encountered it was not a problem that 'went away'.. it was one that needed to be repaired.. thus fords large recall and replacement of 'red' SOS trans with 'blue' sos trans in the large field replacement campaign.

Soundguy

This wasn't "creep". It was plain ol' "In gear and running with no operator in the drivers seat". There were people killed or seriously injured on account of the problem.

I'm not going to get into a debate over why revisionist history by Ford collectors, some of whom weren't even born yet, muchless not old enough to have been a tractor owner/user at the time when the SOS was going through developemental problems (that should have been dealt with BEFORE releasing them to the public) don't wish to acknowledge the full scope of those issues. I don't need to. I saw it for myself. They were in random cases, extremely DANGEROUS even when operated in a relatively safe manner.

Sugar coating a sometimes lethal problem near 50 years later by referring to it as "creep" doesn't change what actually happened

Ford fixed the design problems. By the time they did, enough damage was done to the reputation of SelectoSpeed that it never did reach the levels of success it probably should have. In the day, you couldn't hardly GIVE away a 6000 Commander.

Look at any of the "If I could have any tractor I want" fantasy list's posted on a number of sites and you'll see that I always list a late model 4000SU diesel SelectOspeed. After SOS trannies were "de-bugged", they made great tractors. But in the beginning, they were death traps.

 

[Soundguy]

I don't know why you have to be so completely rude every time we have a disagreement and then beat that same old drum that I am not as old as you yada, yada, yada.

I don't have to be born in 1912 to know something about the titanic.

I'm not being nostalgic. People get hurt on farm equipment. it's happened before they had motors on them.. every make and brand.

I've never indicated that SOS was a good piece of machinere or idea for ford. in fact.. I've avoided owning one. .. However.. as a ford enthusiast.. I have tried to research their history, along with other ford products before and after the SOS legacy since i own some of those models.

Any piece of machinery can malfunction.. no argument there. However. this SOS death spree seems to be a mountain / molehill issue. I'd wager we are talking about some extremly limited numbers / deaths related to real SOS -jump-into-gear injuries, vs other related farm injuries.

I wonder how many people have been kille dby threshers? binders? drils? mowers? sawmills?

You don't see people walking the streets condeming bailers cause people go and do thing without safety on their mind and then get sucked in and killed.

I wonder how many people been wound up on pto shafts?

Most of my tractor manuals I can get my hands on say to shut the tractor down before dismounting. How many of us here do that? Would the person that got killed byt he sos tranny have not got run over if he had heeded a warning in a manual? .. or did he do like many of us and figure that small chance would be a safe one to take....

Now.. if you want to debate.. lets do so.. however.. why not leave the rudeness at home. And quit beating your chest about how much older and smarter yuo are than people wo weren't born when you were. That's just plain unprofesiional and doesn't add squatt to the discussion.

If those are the only 2 putdowns you know to use on me.. give them a rest.. or at least find some new way to insult me .. you know... something fresh. I'd insult you back by my parents raised me better than that.

Soundguy

This wasn't "creep". It was plain ol' "In gear and running with no operator in the drivers seat". There were people killed or seriously injured on account of the problem.

I'm not going to get into a debate over why revisionist history by Ford collectors, some of whom weren't even born yet, muchless not old enough to have been a tractor owner/user at the time when the SOS was going through developemental problems (that should have been dealt with BEFORE releasing them to the public) don't wish to acknowledge the full scope of those issues. I don't need to. I saw it for myself. They were in random cases, extremely DANGEROUS even when operated in a relatively safe manner.

Sugar coating a sometimes lethal problem near 50 years later by referring to it as "creep" doesn't change what actually happened

Ford fixed the design problems. By the time they did, enough damage was done to the reputation of SelectoSpeed that it never did reach the levels of success it probably should have. In the day, you couldn't hardly GIVE away a 6000 Commander.

Look at any of the "If I could have any tractor I want" fantasy list's posted on a number of sites and you'll see that I always list a late model 4000SU diesel SelectOspeed. After SOS trannies were "de-bugged", they made great tractors. But in the beginning, they were death traps.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I don't know why you have to be so completely rude every time we have a disagreement and then beat that same old drum that I am not as old as you yada, yada, yada.

I don't have to be born in 1912 to know something about the titanic.

I'm not being nostalgic. People get hurt on farm equipment. it's happened before they had motors on them.. every make and brand.

I've never indicated that SOS was a good piece of machinere or idea for ford. in fact.. I've avoided owning one. .. However.. as a ford enthusiast.. I have tried to research their history, along with other ford products before and after the SOS legacy since i own some of those models.

Any piece of machinery can malfunction.. no argument there. However. this SOS death spree seems to be a mountain / molehill issue. I'd wager we are talking about some extremly limited numbers / deaths related to real SOS -jump-into-gear injuries, vs other related farm injuries.

I wonder how many people have been kille dby threshers? binders? drils? mowers? sawmills?

You don't see people walking the streets condeming bailers cause people go and do thing without safety on their mind and then get sucked in and killed.

I wonder how many people been wound up on pto shafts?

Most of my tractor manuals I can get my hands on say to shut the tractor down before dismounting. How many of us here do that? Would the person that got killed byt he sos tranny have not got run over if he had heeded a warning in a manual? .. or did he do like many of us and figure that small chance would be a safe one to take....

Now.. if you want to debate.. lets do so.. however.. why not leave the rudeness at home. And quit beating your chest about how much older and smarter yuo are than people wo weren't born when you were. That's just plain unprofesiional and doesn't add squatt to the discussion.

If those are the only 2 putdowns you know to use on me.. give them a rest.. or at least find some new way to insult me .. you know... something fresh. I'd insult you back by my parents raised me better than that.

Soundguy

Over the years, I've learned a thing or two off of the internet and from reading various history accounts. One of the things I've learned is you can't always believe what you read. Sometimes that's a matter of what you DON'T read. Sometimes what you do read is simply a glossed over account of what really happened. It's hard to replace "being there when it happened". When the writer of that history has a vested interest in the image of the subject they're writing about, it's generally a safe bet they'll color the story a little different than factual.

The SelectOspeed tranny had other issues besides the obvious saftey problems. They were unreliable and easily damaged from the get go. That has become the focal point of many Ford enthusiast's when explaining the poor reputation of the SOS. The fact that they were in some instances dangerous and unpredictable has been left out of most historical accounts.


So, you term it "rude" when ever someone points out the specifics of how and why your opinion is flawed? I don't recall "pounding my chest" at any point. I do recall you (in the latest post among others) getting all in a snit when someone disagrees with your OPINION. (An opinion skewed by blind loyalty to a brand that apparently is to be held above reproach and is capable of doing no wrong in your eyes)

"Unprofessional"? What part of this do you see as your profession? Or mine? This is a public discussion forum, and NOT a meeting of the Board of Directors of Ford/New Holland. I call it like I see it. What I ADDED to the discussion was the FACT that I SAW FIRST HAND what happened with some early SOS tractors. Because you DIDN'T see that and NO ONE has ever told you about what specifically went wrong with them doesn't bring back to life the people who were killed when their tractor suddenly and without warning dropped into gear. Do you suppose the families of those killed would term it "mountain/Mole hill" ? To minimize someone's death because, in your eyes' it disparages your favorite brand is simply incredable. There's a huge difference between inherent dangers of a complicated machine and dangerous design flaws that injure people in NORMAL, routine use.

And doesn't it sound logical that someone who wasn't even born yet at that time wouldn't have had to opportunity to see FIRST HAND what the damages were?

A person wouldn't have to be born in 1912 to know something about the Titanic, but I'd tend to think someone who was ON the Titanic would know more about what happened the night it sank than someone who was born 50 or 75 years later. Same logic applies here. As a 13 year old, I went with my father every day and helped take care of chores for a neighbor who was hospitalized with 2 broken legs and several broken ribs when his new Ford SOS decided to run over him while he was hooking up a hay rake. It wasn't an isolated incident. It happened enough to cause Ford to recall all the SOS tractors they'd sold to that point for a re-fit. No, it wasn't your fault. So don't take it like someone accused you of wrong doing.

And why is it you have to take EVERYTHING so personally? Where did I mention YOU specifically being too young to know anything? Seems to be a sore spot with you. Maybe I struck a nerve with that, who knows?

My parents taught me to call a spade a spade.

 

[jfh0jfh]

This wasn't "creep". It was plain ol' "In gear and running with no operator in the drivers seat". There were people killed or seriously injured on account of the problem.

I'm not going to get into a debate over why revisionist history by Ford collectors, some of whom weren't even born yet, muchless not old enough to have been a tractor owner/user at the time when the SOS was going through developemental problems (that should have been dealt with BEFORE releasing them to the public) don't wish to acknowledge the full scope of those issues. I don't need to. I saw it for myself. They were in random cases, extremely DANGEROUS even when operated in a relatively safe manner.

Sugar coating a sometimes lethal problem near 50 years later by referring to it as "creep" doesn't change what actually happened

Ford fixed the design problems. By the time they did, enough damage was done to the reputation of SelectoSpeed that it never did reach the levels of success it probably should have. In the day, you couldn't hardly GIVE away a 6000 Commander.

Look at any of the "If I could have any tractor I want" fantasy list's posted on a number of sites and you'll see that I always list a late model 4000SU diesel SelectOspeed. After SOS trannies were "de-bugged", they made great tractors. But in the beginning, they were death traps.

This is what my neighbors are saying. Two especially, both in their 70s, had relatively new ones on their farms. They would have been in their late-20s/ early-30's then - old enough to know "creep" from "jump". Neither of them IMO are given to excess so I buy that they "jumped" into gear.

And other neighbors have experience with them and to a person think they're junk. But, OK, this is just one Ohio area talking and we're mostly JD here.

This SOS trans (A Brit design? Related to Fordson/ Dexta?) wasn't just in the 6000. It was in 01s, 5000s, _71s, others?

There's some disagreement on when/ how they were fixed: some say the bugs were gone in a year; others 2-3 years; others 4-5. Ford sites (and boosters) claim the shorter term and mention that Ford warranted all the bad ones. Non-Ford folks just say "run away".

For me, anytime I see smoke/ waffling/ double-talk I edge away. Much of the discussion I see about these SOSs is like the discussion about JD 10s vs 20s (the older ones). You hear much about how the 10 pumps were fixed and how the 10 steering problems were fixed and on and on. But I've had some 10s (tractors, a dozer, a backhoe). Never again.

Anyway, I started this thread because I was looking at a 6000. It's a nice-looking tractor and a good price but I don't think the SOS is worth fooliing with. One of the gents here advised I look at a gear-drive 5000. I think that's what I'll do. Or I'll buy the IH 460d that I was also looking at.

Thanks for your comments.