Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue

[kgiovann]

JC - this relates to the original post I made on this thread where tractor and PTO speed simultaneaously drop while engine RPM's remain high when torque is needed.

First, I confirmed with the selling dealer that this unit has a single clutch system.

With power off, clutch in, PTO engaged and stick in neutral, I can peek in and see separation between the disks and can turn with a screw driver. This you probably expect.

When I repeat above with clutch out and stick in gear, I can turn the PTO cw with my fingers without the clutch plate moving. . . I didn't expect this. I was unable to turn ccw, even when using moderate force with a pipe wrench.

 

[JC-jetro]

JC - this relates to the original post I made on this thread where tractor and PTO speed simultaneaously drop while engine RPM's remain high when torque is needed.

First, I confirmed with the selling dealer that this unit has a single clutch system.

1With power off, clutch in, PTO engaged and stick in neutral, I can peek in and see separation between the disks and can turn with a screw driver. This you probably expect.

2When I repeat above with clutch out and stick in gear, I can turn the PTO cw with my fingers without the clutch plate moving. . . I didn't expect this. I was unable to turn ccw, even when using moderate force with a pipe wrench.

Kgiovan,

In scenario 1 it only shows that clutch disk can be free and rotation of that can turn the final pto shaft, meaning all the shafts and gears are meshing okay.

In Scenario 2 it shows that your ORC works fine and clutch is not slipping. Both are good and desired outcomes. The fact that you can turn in one direction is that the ratchet is holding in one way and releasing in other way and that's proof of correct ORC clutch. I don't suggest this at all, but applying more torque should push the tractor forward.

I can not see that you have PTO issues. when you look thru the hand hole do you see oil in the bottom of the clutch housing?. I'm just reaching here , but it might be clutch is on it's way out and when the torque is high depending on implement used in addition to the torque required to move the tractor is enough to start clutch slippage. Let's see if anyone can shed some more light.

JC,


Interesting.

 

[freddvm]

JC,
Well I have had great sucess with the bungee cord idea! It has been mowing great for the short stint of dry weather i had to mow today. I think your right that the PTO was just slipping out of gear b/c of a loose handle. It is not 100% as the PTO stops spinning sometime when abrupt change of direction of when decreasing RPM, but SO much less frequent than before! When it does stop now all i have to do is push in clutch and then let it out to get PTO spinning again.

Thank you so much for your help and advice!! you saved me a ton of $$ and time!
Thank you!
Fred

 

[JC-jetro]

JC,

Thank you so much for your help and advice!! you saved me a ton of $$ and time!
Thank you!
Fred

Hey Fred,

Glad it worked out. You might consider making a bit stiffer bungee mechanism using some wire a bit stiffer than bailing wire and make yourself a loop that you can put over the handle and attached to something in the differential area. A bit of imagination and few minutes and you'll be good to go. I think that'll sustain you for quite a long time and aesthetic is in the eye of the beholder. On my gear shifter I have same type of detent mechanism that keep the stick shift from jumping out. I have not figured out on the pto detent if it is more internal or access to it can be archived from outside. I'm pretty inquisitive person and if I have time I'll take a looksy and will report. I wondered if any of our more learned colleagues here been there , done that.

JC,

By the way, It'll be better next time if you start a brand new thread, I had to go back ad forth between you and the original poster to sort out my answer.

Detent mechanism for the stick shift, four in all.

 

[kgiovann]

JC, since no one had anything to add, I've been limping along with it until now where it takes 60-90 seconds to even get the tractor moving (PTO not engaged). I literally have to wait that long in gear before I start moving. Once it heats up (thermal expansion?) it's better but still no power. It sure feels like the clutch is slipping.

Can I try a simple clutch adjustment (single clutch) before resorting to writing a big check, or ordering a service manual and tackling a clutch replacment? Thanks.

 

[JC-jetro]

JC, since no one had anything to add, I've been limping along with it until now where it takes 60-90 seconds to even get the tractor moving (PTO not engaged). I literally have to wait that long in gear before I start moving. Once it heats up (thermal expansion?) it's better but still no power. It sure feels like the clutch is slipping.

Can I try a simple clutch adjustment (single clutch) before resorting to writing a big check, or ordering a service manual and tackling a clutch replacment? Thanks.

Sorry kgiovannn for your continued issue. Again, with a single clutch you have transmission driven pto. PTO ORC(over running clutch) is a one way ratchet only and gives some impression of transmission type clutch. There are other flavor of PTO clutch that works off of a set of clutch disks that is hydraulically pushed together to cause the grabbing force to couple a driven shaft with a driving shaft. You do not have that. Your pto ORC either makes or not make and there is nothing in between. if your ORC is bad you still should be able to move with pto engaged or not engage. if anything is slipping, is you main transmission clutch. The clutch adjustment for single clutch is literally just a "free clutch pedal play". The only time that would hurt you if the pedal by adjustment always pushes some pressure on the pressure plate. it is the same as " riding the clutch" as some people have a bad habit of leaving their left foot on the clutch pedal. doing so for a long time causes premature wear of the disk material hence less grabbing force. I understand that there is a rubber hand hole on 1715 as well that you might be able to look at disk itself. The disk thickness on either side of middle steel disk should be around 3/16". it'll be obvious if the clutch plate is consumed.

Forger the pto for a minute, can you put the tracor in gear when cold and be able to move without hesitation. Report and we may be get a bit closer.

If the release bearing is not touching the fingers on pressure plate then there is no way adjusting the " clutch free play" is going to add grabbing force to worn out clutch disk. If I'm losing you somewhere let me know and I'll explain.

JC,

Ps. One of the guys ending up changing his pto ORC on 1715. He said 1715s had an issue with their orc. bad part of it that rear diffy needs to be split.

You can make a gage to measure from a piece of card board. My clutch plate thickness is 95% of original.

 

[JC-jetro]

kgiovan,

You might look at the link below as well.

JC,

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/new-holland-owning-operating/144014-ford-1715-power-take-off.html

 

[kgiovann]

JC- I think we're there in terms of identifying the problem. Clutch disc thickness (both sides of middle steel plate) is less the 1/4". No way to get calipers in there but remaining thickness is nowhere near 3/16. I may try an adjustment to buy time, but it's worn out.

I also read the other post you suggested. Since my PTO and back wheels BOTH lose power at the same time, I don't think it's the PTO override. Also, when the engines cold and the PTO level is disengaged, the tractor still takes a long time to get moving. It's a strange sensation sitting there in gear with the clutch out not moving.

The transmission clutch adjustment is straight forward - Mechanical on the outside.

I have an operators manual, but I'll pick up a service manual. Is that the book I need? I also see shop and parts manuals available on line. Service manuals are available for < $200, so that sounds like a good investment.

Thanks for the sage advice. I'll update!

 

[kgiovann]

JC - correction. Thickness on plates is less than 1/8 inch, not 1/4 as I stated earlier. I doubt even an adjustment will help but I'll give it a try.

 

[JC-jetro]

JC- I think we're there in terms of identifying the problem. Clutch disc thickness (both sides of middle steel plate) is less the 1/4". No way to get calipers in there but remaining thickness is nowhere near 3/16. I may try an adjustment to buy time, but it's worn out.

I also read the other post you suggested. Since my PTO and back wheels BOTH lose power at the same time, I don't think it's the PTO override. Also, when the engines cold and the PTO level is disengaged, the tractor still takes a long time to get moving. It's a strange sensation sitting there in gear with the clutch out not moving.

The transmission clutch adjustment is straight forward - Mechanical on the outside.

I have an operators manual, but I'll pick up a service manual. Is that the book I need? I also see shop and parts manuals available on line. Service manuals are available for < $200, so that sounds like a good investment.

Thanks for the sage advice. I'll update!

Hey KG,

The fact that tractor is sluggish to start with or without PTO engaged is almost proof positive that your clutch is slipping and is worn out. The only remedy for it disk replacement. Transmission clutch is friction based, and so called PTO ORC is a one way ratchet only, grabs one way and slip the other way. One of the guys has done an overhaul plus a clutch replacement. With permission I'll post it below.

The first picture is the clutch for 1700. It might be a bit different in shape with 1715 but function is identical. You see the big flywheel, and a pressure plate with 3 brown color fingers. The clutch disk is sandwiched between the two.

In this picture you see transmission input shaft and a mechanism to push on pressure plate fingers. it includes a hub (cast) and a bearing that sits on top. You push the clutch pedal and bearing touches and pushes the fingers in causing the disk to be separated from the flywheel. All the external adjustment you do is only going to cause surface of bearing to get closer or further from the fingers and that's all. The only way adjustment can help you is if the bearing was constantly pushing the fingers at all times (way out of adjustment). in a fix like that you'll loose grabbing force (friction).

This is picture of my 1700 where you see how close the release bearing is to pressure plate fingers but not touching it.

The picture of clutch housing from top with steering column removed.

are you able with tractor off and clutch pedal out get a flat head screwdriver and move the clutch disk up or down? That is also a sign of major slippage.

I have IT manual that I bought for less than $20, it is okay for the price but not as good as service manual.. it is anemically adequate. I'll post the adjustment below for now till you get a manual. I still think replacement of clutch disk is easier job that replacing pto internal ORC.

Good luck
JC,