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  1. #1
    Veteran Member Hooked_on_HP's Avatar
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    Ford 1900 FWD Kubota F2100E

    Default Rattle in PTO

    My Ford 1900 4x4 with 2 stage clutch has a rattle in the PTO when under a moderate load. It sounds normal turning with out a load . It sounds like a bearing. I cannot tell if the noise is comming from the transmission housing or the rear end housing. The PTO shaft doesn't wiggle so I am guessing it is an internal bearing. The service manual doesn't give a real good diagram of the PTO shaft and bearings. Can I access the PTO by removing the lift cover. At this point I am just trying to find which bearing is bad before starting a majior dissasembly. Does any one have any ideas to make this simpler to detect.

    Bill

  2. #2
    Elite Member JC-jetro's Avatar
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    Kansas
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    Ford 1700, Kubota MX-4700

    Default Re: Rattle in PTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked_on_HP View Post
    My Ford 1900 4x4 with 2 stage clutch has a rattle in the PTO when under a moderate load. It sounds normal turning with out a load . It sounds like a bearing. I cannot tell if the noise is comming from the transmission housing or the rear end housing. The PTO shaft doesn't wiggle so I am guessing it is an internal bearing. The service manual doesn't give a real good diagram of the PTO shaft and bearings. Can I access the PTO by removing the lift cover. At this point I am just trying to find which bearing is bad before starting a majior dissasembly. Does any one have any ideas to make this simpler to detect.

    Bill

    Hey Bill, sorry for your problem.

    I have not done this repair or opened the tractor up enough to get to pto inner mechanism but studied some of the diagrams. Here is some of my thoughts.

    - When I opened the transmission cover and PTO shaft cover right in front of the operator seat noticed the bearings are huge and very stout looking on my 1700. They get plenty of splash lubrication so hard to see then having issue shorter that the life of tractor unless they are running real dry.
    - you don't have ORC as momentum of the rotary implement can not propel
    your tractor, so all you have there is an siding coupler.
    - can you with engine off, transmission in neutral , cluch out turn or wiggle the pto a bit. what happens if you get a wrench on the pto pipe and try to turn it a bit (not too much force)... I'm taking your problem might lie in the pto shaft, it's spline to first clutch plate or something brocken in the clutch assembly.
    -I do the above test with the clutch completely pressed in as well and compare and contrast the results.
    -One of the guys here changed and ORC on his 1700 and had to remove the lift cover and additionally the the axle as well. his pic was taken with his cell phone so it was not the most clear.

    -I hope no spline in the pto input shaft is busted either at the clutch or at the sliding coupler.
    - looking as the diagrams it appears the short stubby PTO shaft might come out from the rear without taking cover off. Not completely sure. when you take the cover off in the back I think there is a bearing pressed there as well.


    keep us posted. I hope you don't have do major dis assembly


    JC,
    Ford 1700, 2wd.
    Kubota MX-4700DT, Gear transmission with LA 884 loader, Q/A and HD bucket.
    60" Woods Rotary Cutter, home made (3-pt boom and a Row Hipper) ,King Kutter( 5 ft Tiller,Middle Buster,Single Row Cultivator,Carry-all, 5 ft blade, 6 ft Landscaping Rake ,30" Dirt Scoop and a 4'x4' Drag Harrow)

  3. #3
    Veteran Member Hooked_on_HP's Avatar
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    Ford 1900 FWD Kubota F2100E

    Default Re: Rattle in PTO

    JC, I think it does have an orc. I was wondering if it could be making the noise.
    Bill

  4. #4
    Gold Member
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    Ohio hill country
    Tractor
    2006 TC45A

    Default Re: Rattle in PTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked_on_HP View Post
    My Ford 1900 4x4 with 2 stage clutch has a rattle in the PTO when under a moderate load. It sounds normal turning with out a load . It sounds like a bearing. I cannot tell if the noise is comming from the transmission housing or the rear end housing. The PTO shaft doesn't wiggle so I am guessing it is an internal bearing. The service manual doesn't give a real good diagram of the PTO shaft and bearings. Can I access the PTO by removing the lift cover. At this point I am just trying to find which bearing is bad before starting a majior dissasembly. Does any one have any ideas to make this simpler to detect.

    Bill

    Bill, check that pto cover first. Mine was loose and when I turned on the pto it rattled against the rear end housing and sounded just like a bad bearing.
    You can never tell.
    2006 TC45A

  5. #5
    Elite Member JC-jetro's Avatar
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    Ford 1700, Kubota MX-4700

    Default Re: Rattle in PTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked_on_HP View Post
    JC, I think it does have an orc. I was wondering if it could be making the noise.
    Bill
    I don't think it has ORC. I looked at the parts breakdown. it only shows sliding coupling. with two shafts and when the pto is coupled directly to first clutch then why would you need orc ?.You would have orc with hydro or anytime that the main clutch is single. ORC is to keep rotary implement from turning transmission gear and eventually tractor wheels without operator intervention. Sweep has a good point it might be loose round external Pto shaft cover.

    ORC can have broken tooth leading to the noise you're hearing but you don't have one.

    JC,


    ps. If you look at TC-30 with dual clutch they don't list ORC for it, they do for transmission driven pto and hydro trannies.
    Ford 1700, 2wd.
    Kubota MX-4700DT, Gear transmission with LA 884 loader, Q/A and HD bucket.
    60" Woods Rotary Cutter, home made (3-pt boom and a Row Hipper) ,King Kutter( 5 ft Tiller,Middle Buster,Single Row Cultivator,Carry-all, 5 ft blade, 6 ft Landscaping Rake ,30" Dirt Scoop and a 4'x4' Drag Harrow)

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Hooked_on_HP's Avatar
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    Ford 1900 FWD Kubota F2100E

    Default Re: Rattle in PTO

    Well it definatly has an orc. With the tractor shut off I engaged the pto. I can turn the pto shaft one way but not the other.
    I started dissasembly tonight. The seat came off without any problems. I disconected the hyd lines for the loader, I removed all the bolts for the lift cover. I tried fo 1/2hr to get the lift cover off with no luck. Some one had had the lift cover off before and used some type of glue or sealer that I can't break loose. I even hooked the engine hoist to it and tried lifting it off. I just lifted the rear tires off the ground. I checked 3 times to make sure I had all the bolts out. So now I am on hold untill I can figure this out.
    Bill

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Jerry/MT's Avatar
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    New Holland TD95D, Ford 4610 & Ferguson TO-30

    Default Re: Rattle in PTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked_on_HP View Post
    My Ford 1900 4x4 with 2 stage clutch has a rattle in the PTO when under a moderate load. It sounds normal turning with out a load . It sounds like a bearing. I cannot tell if the noise is comming from the transmission housing or the rear end housing. The PTO shaft doesn't wiggle so I am guessing it is an internal bearing. The service manual doesn't give a real good diagram of the PTO shaft and bearings. Can I access the PTO by removing the lift cover. At this point I am just trying to find which bearing is bad before starting a majior dissasembly. Does any one have any ideas to make this simpler to detect.

    Bill
    Are you sure it doesn't have a independent pto. If it does, then there is a clutch pack that is actuated by hydraulic pressure when you engage the pto lever.

    There is no ORC as I know an ORC. The ones I'm familiar with are used with transmission driven pto's like the Ford N series and the Ferguson TO-20 & TO-30, etc and are external to the tractor.

  8. #8
    Elite Member JC-jetro's Avatar
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    Ford 1700, Kubota MX-4700

    Default Re: Rattle in PTO

    That might prove the ORC..maybe .... I wonder why it was not clearly named or identified in the parts break down. there are a couple of studs on the diffy to line up the hyd cover so you can not bang on the side of the cover to loosen it up. You might take a cold chisel and give it few light strikes at the seam... might loosen it bit. did you take all the bolts plus the nuts? are you lifting the back of tractor up?

    jc

    edit:

    this is where they might have an ORC. although I could not find specific to double clutch pto description.

    15 1 SBA322340850 GEAR Gear, "A", Double Clutch, 28T, 19 Splines, W/Live PTO, 1900 When using this Gear,Ref. 3 & 14, 16 thru 22 are not used., Start Year: 07/01/1981
    Last edited by JC-jetro; 06-06-2011 at 10:59 PM.
    Ford 1700, 2wd.
    Kubota MX-4700DT, Gear transmission with LA 884 loader, Q/A and HD bucket.
    60" Woods Rotary Cutter, home made (3-pt boom and a Row Hipper) ,King Kutter( 5 ft Tiller,Middle Buster,Single Row Cultivator,Carry-all, 5 ft blade, 6 ft Landscaping Rake ,30" Dirt Scoop and a 4'x4' Drag Harrow)

  9. #9
    Elite Member JC-jetro's Avatar
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    Ford 1700, Kubota MX-4700

    Default Re: Rattle in PTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry/MT View Post
    Are you sure it doesn't have a independent pto. If it does, then there is a clutch pack that is actuated by hydraulic pressure when you engage the pto lever.

    .
    jerry,

    your statement is true, but it does not apply to 1900 as it does have an independent pto (hydraulically activated) option. they have transmission driven pto or live, double clutch option. what Bill said it quite indicative representative of orc operation.

    jc



    edit: correction forgot to add "Not" to my statement. 1900 does not come with hydraulically activated PTO. it is live dual clutch or transmission driven single clutch.
    Last edited by JC-jetro; 06-07-2011 at 11:47 AM.
    Ford 1700, 2wd.
    Kubota MX-4700DT, Gear transmission with LA 884 loader, Q/A and HD bucket.
    60" Woods Rotary Cutter, home made (3-pt boom and a Row Hipper) ,King Kutter( 5 ft Tiller,Middle Buster,Single Row Cultivator,Carry-all, 5 ft blade, 6 ft Landscaping Rake ,30" Dirt Scoop and a 4'x4' Drag Harrow)

  10. #10
    Elite Member JC-jetro's Avatar
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    Ford 1700, Kubota MX-4700

    Default Re: Rattle in PTO

    Hey Bill,

    I thought of something that might help you separating lift cover off of the diffy. I'm sure you know what "pullers" or sometimes "pushers" are. I have got couple of options here with the second option easier to do in my opinion.

    pusher #1.

    are you familiar with AC Delco radial AC compressors? at time magnetic clutch would go out and needed replacement or if you needed to change the compressor but wanting to keep the clutch. this device was made out of two pieces. Outer piece was threaded that match up to clutch inner thread. The inner part of tool had a stud that was threaded to the inner of the outer piece. You simply tightened the tool against the clutch and then turn the inner rod CCW and the stud pushed the clutch out against the compresor input shaft. Easy as a piece a cake fabricating this tool is much more difficult and you got to be very lucky (unlikely) if the tool already created matches up with your thread.

    Pusher #2.

    You have to build this yourself a pusher, look at the pic below. You need to get yourself a flat bar 3/8" or better 1/2" thick slightly longer that the distance between 3 bolts. The bolts in the back of the lift is taller due to thickness of the lift. You'll be needing 3 bolts from the back. Now drill 3 holes slightly larger that the thread dia of the attaching bolt. at this point you need to find yourself a nut the can be welded on to the middle hole. You then get yourself a piece of all thread or reebar and on a grinder chew the diameter down where it would fall without resistance in to the threaded hole in the diffy. You should be able to retrieve it easily using a magnet out of the hole. Cut a piece pf rounded round bar 1/4 shorter than top of the lift cover.

    final procedure: drop the rod in the hole, mount the horizontal oice to the lift cover with two outside bolt snug, screw one of the longer bolts in the welded nut in the middle and start tightening it. That will push the cover against the diffy with a strong point load. I'll be cautious of uniformly apply pressure on both side to not to god forbid craking the lift cover. The point load will be strong.

    Let me know what you think.

    JC,




    The middle hole welded nut should be something like below. Please disregard the look of my weld puddle , it don't look good but the nut is stuck good.




    Ford 1700, 2wd.
    Kubota MX-4700DT, Gear transmission with LA 884 loader, Q/A and HD bucket.
    60" Woods Rotary Cutter, home made (3-pt boom and a Row Hipper) ,King Kutter( 5 ft Tiller,Middle Buster,Single Row Cultivator,Carry-all, 5 ft blade, 6 ft Landscaping Rake ,30" Dirt Scoop and a 4'x4' Drag Harrow)

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