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  1. #1
    New Member
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    Apr 2013
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    Milford, NJ
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    2002 New Holland TC40D, Ford 601 Workmaster, MF200B Crawler/Loader

    Default My New to Me TC40D- Dilemma, fuel solenoid

    Good Morning to everyone that has been so helpful over the past few months since I purchased the "New to Me" TC40D. I had been looking around for quite some time and finally came across this unit and had to have it. I picked it up out in Lancaster, PA, and trailered it back home to NJ. It had a few minor issues that I didnt mind but it ran great and would be perfect for me needs. Came with the 16la loader and the 758c backhoe. The first few things I looked up on this site were the tricks/methods used for the easiest removal of the backhoe. I figured it couldnt be that hard, but to get a little insight from the experienced ones certainly could not hurt!

    After about a month, the first issue I had was it wouldn't start... just clicked, clicked, clicked- off to "Research" at tractorbynet and I installed the relay between the switch and the starter. Started almost instantly! AMAZING! Fixed. You guys are a wealth of valuable information.

    The tractor did not come with manuals, so I did purchase them- Very useful information to have.

    Now my ISSUE, sorry for the long post.

    I have not had any running problems for the past 8 months- Last week, I loaded onto my trailer, went to location and pulled out a bunch of fence posts- Loaded it back on trailer, brought home, unloaded and parked in front of the garage, no issues.

    Next morning, went to start it, it just cranks. Ugh. Off to do some research and did some tests, then came across the fuel solenoid info. According to Jinman, there should be 12v to it, which in fact there is not. I ran 12v directly to it, and the tractor fires right up! Yippeee!

    So I know what the problem is, need a little help how to fix it. The previous owner disconnected ALL the safety switches that I know of. Parking brake, PTO, Seat, they are all disconnected. I'd say it was one of these connections, but I don't even know where to start.

    Interesting that it has been fine all this time, and now, it decides to not function, maybe something came lose, corrosion- I looked at all the "taped" disconnected wires and the all look fine. Does anyone have any photos of the wiring that goes to the switches directly? I would actually like to hook some of them back up, especially the PTO one- I would like the PTO Light to come on when it is engaged and it would probably be a good idea if the tractor would not start with the PTO engaged as well. Wiring diagrams are not that helpful to me sometimes, I prefer to see the actual switch and wired going to them.

    -2013-09-28_14-15-15_405-a

    All the fuses are fine, is there a relay perhaps? My next thought is, can I just run a wire from a, switched power, directly to the solenoid and bypass everything? I don't normally like to "fix" things like that.

    Thanks for taking the time to read... just looking for any input!
    ~Sean

  2. #2
    Super Star Member k0ua's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    18,133
    Location
    Branson, Mo.
    Tractor
    Kioti DK35se Hydrostat

    Default Re: My New to Me TC40D- Dilemma, fuel solenoid

    Quote Originally Posted by SMK70 View Post
    Good Morning to everyone that has been so helpful over the past few months since I purchased the "New to Me" TC40D. I had been looking around for quite some time and finally came across this unit and had to have it. I picked it up out in Lancaster, PA, and trailered it back home to NJ. It had a few minor issues that I didnt mind but it ran great and would be perfect for me needs. Came with the 16la loader and the 758c backhoe. The first few things I looked up on this site were the tricks/methods used for the easiest removal of the backhoe. I figured it couldnt be that hard, but to get a little insight from the experienced ones certainly could not hurt!

    After about a month, the first issue I had was it wouldn't start... just clicked, clicked, clicked- off to "Research" at tractorbynet and I installed the relay between the switch and the starter. Started almost instantly! AMAZING! Fixed. You guys are a wealth of valuable information.

    The tractor did not come with manuals, so I did purchase them- Very useful information to have.

    Now my ISSUE, sorry for the long post.

    I have not had any running problems for the past 8 months- Last week, I loaded onto my trailer, went to location and pulled out a bunch of fence posts- Loaded it back on trailer, brought home, unloaded and parked in front of the garage, no issues.

    Next morning, went to start it, it just cranks. Ugh. Off to do some research and did some tests, then came across the fuel solenoid info. According to Jinman, there should be 12v to it, which in fact there is not. I ran 12v directly to it, and the tractor fires right up! Yippeee!

    So I know what the problem is, need a little help how to fix it. The previous owner disconnected ALL the safety switches that I know of. Parking brake, PTO, Seat, they are all disconnected. I'd say it was one of these connections, but I don't even know where to start.

    Interesting that it has been fine all this time, and now, it decides to not function, maybe something came lose, corrosion- I looked at all the "taped" disconnected wires and the all look fine. Does anyone have any photos of the wiring that goes to the switches directly? I would actually like to hook some of them back up, especially the PTO one- I would like the PTO Light to come on when it is engaged and it would probably be a good idea if the tractor would not start with the PTO engaged as well. Wiring diagrams are not that helpful to me sometimes, I prefer to see the actual switch and wired going to them.

    -2013-09-28_14-15-15_405-a

    All the fuses are fine, is there a relay perhaps? My next thought is, can I just run a wire from a, switched power, directly to the solenoid and bypass everything? I don't normally like to "fix" things like that.

    Thanks for taking the time to read... just looking for any input!
    ~Sean
    Look at the schematic and determine how the fuel solenoid works. On my Kioti it is a two coil solenoid, a PULL coil that is high current, ( I think about 30 amps) and a HOLD coil which is less than an amp. The PULL coil has a relay to handle the high current. and that relay is driven by an electronic timer chip for 1 second. It is just enough to get the solenoid thrown. This takes a lot of power, and would heat up badly if left on continuously. The HOLD coil circuit is just driven from the switch key buss since it is low current. But it is enough current to keep the solenoid pulled back once it is thrown back by the high current coil. Now none of this means that is the way your solenoid works. I don't have a clue because I don't have your schematic Perhaps Jinman can help here by perusing the schematic and offering a diagnosis.

    James K0UA
    James KUA

    Kioti DK35se hydrostat with 2 QA buckets, 48 inch. King Kutter Rotary Cutter. 750 lbs ballast box. Loaded tires, Construction Attachments SSQA Lightweight Pallet forks. EA 50 inch single lid "wicked" Grapple. Satisfied Everlast PA160 welder owner How to add a link to a post . Best way to search TBN


  3. #3
    New Member
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    Apr 2013
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    Milford, NJ
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    2002 New Holland TC40D, Ford 601 Workmaster, MF200B Crawler/Loader

    Default Re: My New to Me TC40D- Dilemma, fuel solenoid

    Thanks James... from what I can see, power applied to it allows fuel to flow, remove power it stops. It seems that there should be constant power while running- Unless I'm missing something, I'm not sure why a wire (switched with the key) hooked directly to the solenoid wouldn't work.

  4. #4
    Veteran Member RDrancher's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    2,035
    Location
    Sanger, Texas
    Tractor
    New Holland TC35D, Case TR320 CTL

    Default Re: My New to Me TC40D- Dilemma, fuel solenoid

    If the seat switch is disconnected I'd check out the wiring loom behind the seat for a jumper wire. It might have come loose under the tape. I'd also check to see if your pto is off for sure. Mine has rattled on before and caused a no-start. While you're at it, follow the linkages for the pto and range selector (transmission) to locate the switches. I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find them that way.

    One time when mine wouldn't start on the job, Jim had me unscrew the fuel solenoid. It started right away, indicating a bad solenoid. It has to screwed back in with the wire attached to shut it off.
    John

    My Work & Stuff Photo Thread: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/p...to-thread.html

    2 Peter 3:1-18

  5. #5
    Super Star Member k0ua's Avatar
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    Branson, Mo.
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    Kioti DK35se Hydrostat

    Default Re: My New to Me TC40D- Dilemma, fuel solenoid

    Quote Originally Posted by SMK70 View Post
    Thanks James... from what I can see, power applied to it allows fuel to flow, remove power it stops. It seems that there should be constant power while running- Unless I'm missing something, I'm not sure why a wire (switched with the key) hooked directly to the solenoid wouldn't work.
    Well how much current does the solenoid pull? Again I don't know how yours work, but mine has two coils a pull coil and a hold coil. I would be very surprised if you could energize the solenoid with just a small current that you could pull through the key switch.

    James K0UA
    James KUA

    Kioti DK35se hydrostat with 2 QA buckets, 48 inch. King Kutter Rotary Cutter. 750 lbs ballast box. Loaded tires, Construction Attachments SSQA Lightweight Pallet forks. EA 50 inch single lid "wicked" Grapple. Satisfied Everlast PA160 welder owner How to add a link to a post . Best way to search TBN


  6. #6
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    jinman's Avatar
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    Default Re: My New to Me TC40D- Dilemma, fuel solenoid

    James, the solenoid pulls about 1 amp normally. If he jumpered 12vdc to it and it started. The symptoms are pointing directly at the seat switch bypass. I use a wire with male spade connectors on mine and the male spades will corrode after a rain (I park it outside) sometimes and I have to clean them. I am certain the OPs problem is related to the seat switch or its bypass wiring.

    If the PTO or Neutral sensing bypass is faulty, the engine will not crank over. If the engine cranks but will not start, it is certainly related to the seat switch or broken wire in the seat switch circuit. It also could be the operator safety module, but that's the last thing to check after the seat switch wiring or bypass is verified good. I have only heard of one oper safety module failing in my 13 years of being on TBN.
    Jim


  7. #7
    Super Star Member k0ua's Avatar
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    Branson, Mo.
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    Kioti DK35se Hydrostat

    Default Re: My New to Me TC40D- Dilemma, fuel solenoid

    Quote Originally Posted by jinman View Post
    James, the solenoid pulls about 1 amp normally. If he jumpered 12vdc to it and it started. The symptoms are pointing directly at the seat switch bypass. I use a wire with male spade connectors on mine and the male spades will corrode after a rain (I park it outside) sometimes and I have to clean them. I am certain the OPs problem is related to the seat switch or its bypass wiring.

    If the PTO or Neutral sensing bypass is faulty, the engine will not crank over. If the engine cranks but will not start, it is certainly related to the seat switch or broken wire in the seat switch circuit. It also could be the operator safety module, but that's the last thing to check after the seat switch wiring or bypass is verified good. I have only heard of one oper safety module failing in my 13 years of being on TBN.
    Thanks Jim.. different tractors work different ways.. My Kioti is radically different with a 30 amp pull coil with a 1 second timer module and a relay and a 3/4 amp hold coil on the ignition key buss.

    James K0UA
    James KUA

    Kioti DK35se hydrostat with 2 QA buckets, 48 inch. King Kutter Rotary Cutter. 750 lbs ballast box. Loaded tires, Construction Attachments SSQA Lightweight Pallet forks. EA 50 inch single lid "wicked" Grapple. Satisfied Everlast PA160 welder owner How to add a link to a post . Best way to search TBN


  8. #8
    New Member
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    Apr 2013
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    Location
    Milford, NJ
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    2002 New Holland TC40D, Ford 601 Workmaster, MF200B Crawler/Loader

    Default Re: My New to Me TC40D- Dilemma, fuel solenoid

    I went through all the wires I could find that were taped up/bypassed that I could find, wiggled and looked for corrosion. I see anything that looked "bad". Regarding the seat, it was replaced and there is no longer even a switch or wires coming out of it. Behind the seat, there is a wire loom with 3 wires in it, which are all twisted together with a wire nut. I can only think that is/was the seat switch harness. It looks like they continue down to the parking brake switch.

    I guess my real question is, can I run a switched wire directly to the solenoid? Am I correct in thinking it should be supplied 12v constantly to keep running? I just dont want to ruin anything else by having constant power to it.

    Jinman, you are correct, it cranks fine and when I applied 12v to the solenoid, it fired right up. How do I check that safety module, where is it?

    Again, thank you for your help!

  9. #9
    Epic Contributor
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    jinman's Avatar
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    NHTC45D, NH LB75B, Ford Jubilee

    Default Re: My New to Me TC40D- Dilemma, fuel solenoid

    In order to check the safety module, it is under the left side cowling where the relays are. To remove the cowling, you remove the bolts between the two sides under the steering wheel and then there are two bolts on the firewall, visible when you raise the hood. There are actually three bolts there, but the top bolt does not go to the cowling. Only the lower two bolts need be removed. With the cowling removed, you will be shocked with the amount of dust and you may find a critter nest. Do not use water to clean this area. Use a soft bristle paint brush and compressed air (like keyboard cleaner) to blow out any dust. In the illus. below, I've labelled the Oper Safety Module. Just above it, there are 6 relays. #4 is the fuel-shutoff relay that sends power to the solenoid. On the Oper Safety module, Pin E is the one that gets input from the seat switch. If the parking brake is set, there is a parallel path to that pin from the parking brake switch. If the parking brake switch is damaged or out of adjustment, it should not cause problems. It only serves to bypass the seat switch if you are in neutral and not sitting in the seat. The safety module sends out power on Pin B to the Fuel S/O relay's coil. If you think the relay is inop, you can swap it with one of the other similar relays.

    It is completely okay to run 12 volts through a switch to the solenoid. Just remember that when you turn off the key, you will not kill the engine. You'll have to throw the switch. Since all your interlocks are already bypassed, this is the only additional caution. The solenoid runs on full 12 volts and is common for it to get warm, but not so hot you can't touch it.

    Good luck with your troubleshooting. BTW: The fuse that supplies power is fuse #2. If fuse 2 is blown, your engine will not crank over and the PTO ON lamp will stay illuminated constantly on the dash with the key on whether the PTO lever is engaged or not.

    -all-relays-jpg
    Jim


  10. #10
    New Member
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    2002 New Holland TC40D, Ford 601 Workmaster, MF200B Crawler/Loader

    Default Re: My New to Me TC40D- Dilemma, fuel solenoid

    Thanks Jim- That illustration is very helpful! I will check the relay and do more research regarding the wiring harness. My last resort will be to wire it directly, of course from a switched power lead in the ignition somewhere.

    Again, thank you for the information!

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