Ford 1700 Dead headed hydraulic pump- am I screwed?

[JC-jetro]

Nice, that was quick.:thumbsup: It is so much better to take a big problem without adding further to it and divide it to simpler components. Start from the very bottom and build a case. Any how , glad it was quick and painless as there is plenty of potential to dork up a perfectly good system with all good intentions.

-about 2100 psi is okay. As the pump gets older pumping efficiency might go down to wear and tear. Poppet stuck open either by some contaminant or did not seat right due to deadheading as it forces the relif valve to jump off the seat, chatter and bypass.

Q1- yes. Mine is about 2200 pressure, that pressure is achieved at rated rpm for pto, so if you idle you will read a lower pressure. it is directly proportional to pump speed.
Q2- yes, and yes and works just the same for me too.
Q3- not with first start. now think about it, glow plug has no moving part, 10 seconds of preheat in the summer and starting on the first try is always always better as wear and tear is minimized on the starter. in winter I give it 20 second, warmer I give it less and my tractor 95% of time starts on the first crank. Save your starter and always always preheat unless the tractor is already hot.
JC,


-

JC: YOU SIR ARE A SAVIOR!!
I checked the fluid level and it was fine.
Connected a 0- 140 PSI pressure gauge and ran it- had zero PSI as I stated earlier.
Pulled out the pressure relief valve component, and started the tractor for 6 seconds, as fluid went all over. NOTE: I'm glad I had put down plastic sheeting for this test just in case.
Reassembled the valve. At first I started the valve back into place, but was concerned the poppet might fall off the spring into which it fits. So I took it out and put some grease on it to secure it in place while screwing it in.
Started the tractor- operated perfectly.
I then performed the pressure test per the manual, and had 1900 PSI, and adjusted the pressure relief valve to 2100 per the Ford manual value of 2133 +/- 71 PSI. So I'm assuming the poppet valve was stuck out of position as you surmised. Still would have thought would have had some pressure, not zero, but that wasn't the case.

Q1. My 'EDIT' statement above is incorrect, right? What approx. pressure would I see if I put the gauge at the return fitting at the tranny/control valve? Would it be near zero or?
Q2. For the system I drew above, a properly operating pressure relief valve will protect the hyd. pump from people like me, right?
Q3. Will your 1700 start on a 60 degree day without using the pre-heat?

Thanks very much for help!- Dean

 

[toukow]

Nice, that was quick.:thumbsup: It is so much better to take a big problem without adding further to it and divide it to simpler components. Start from the very bottom and build a case. Any how , glad it was quick and painless as there is plenty of potential to dork up a perfectly good system with all good intentions.

-about 2100 psi is okay. As the pump gets older pumping efficiency might go down to wear and tear. Poppet stuck open either by some contaminant or did not seat right due to deadheading as it forces the relif valve to jump off the seat, chatter and bypass.

Q1- yes. Mine is about 2200 pressure, that pressure is achieved at rated rpm for pto, so if you idle you will read a lower pressure. it is directly proportional to pump speed.
Q2- yes, and yes and works just the same for me too.
Q3- not with first start. now think about it, glow plug has no moving part, 10 seconds of preheat in the summer and starting on the first try is always always better as wear and tear is minimized on the starter. in winter I give it 20 second, warmer I give it less and my tractor 95% of time starts on the first crank. Save your starter and always always preheat unless the tractor is already hot.
JC,


-

I always tend to jump to conclusions when troubleshooting, so need to follow your logic. Will use the pre-heat. Just replaced the battery and am regretting not getting more CCA's, but I keep it on a trickle charger. The main complaint I have with this tractor (besides parts availability) is I wear a size 14 boot, and getting in and out of the driver's position is a relative pain. Thought about getting a newer unit, but I've really taken good care of this thing with only 790 hours, replaced hoses, etc. that I can't bring myself to do it. Right now I'm rebuilding the 770 loader cylinders as one started leaking. Thanks again for the help, Dean

 

[JC-jetro]

Dean,

I would not part with mine as long as I can. There is efficiency in size. 1700 is small enough to get any nooks without any issues and has the power and durability to actually get things done. On last 10 years that I had my 1700 I believe I have spent less than sum total of $300 in parts and all I wanted were available or was able to find suitable substitute as long as fuel injection pump and hyd pump is not damaged. All lft and hydraulic is so easy to repair and diagnose. as you know it sips fuel and not even very thirsty. It would not do what mu kubota does but 1700 is my go to for a lot of smaller tasks. I could not buy a new throwaway mower for the $3100 I spent on it. Now I'm a small guy but I get my boot stuck from time to time. If your rig has FWA and power steering then I would never get rid of it. Mine after 30 years had 1200 hrs and is juct getting broken in.

Good luck,
JC,

 

[toukow]

Dean,

I would not part with mine as long as I can. There is efficiency in size. 1700 is small enough to get any nooks without any issues and has the power and durability to actually get things done. On last 10 years that I had my 1700 I believe I have spent less than sum total of $300 in parts and all I wanted were available or was able to find suitable substitute as long as fuel injection pump and hyd pump is not damaged. All lft and hydraulic is so easy to repair and diagnose. as you know it sips fuel and not even very thirsty. It would not do what mu kubota does but 1700 is my go to for a lot of smaller tasks. I could not buy a new throwaway mower for the $3100 I spent on it. Now I'm a small guy but I get my boot stuck from time to time. If your rig has FWA and power steering then I would never get rid of it. Mine after 30 years had 1200 hrs and is juct getting broken in.

Good luck,
JC,

To your point, the only parts I've really need were the steering gear piece in the steering box, and I was able to find that new. This was due to a tree falling on it before I bought it. I've put it through all the hard work building a house, so now it will probably see 10 hours a year, and last till I'm dead. It has enough power for most of my needs. It is 4WD, but doesn't have power steering which would be GREAT to have.

You have much better prices in your neck of the woods than we do in the Seattle area. This one came with a three point mounted backhoe and was $8500 and had 540 hours. When I look at the new Ford New Holland's, they tell me using a three point backhoe will void the warranty as the cases on the new ones are so delicate as to crack. I've never had anything happen from using it on this tractor, but think I'll try and be careful in the future as to the direction of forces applied to the tractor. When I first bought it the dealer mentioned parts availability issues, not sure of the validity, but have kept it in the back of my mind. I'm trying to replace all the items which might take it out of service (I don't have the luxury of a second unit as you have), so have replaced all the hyd hoses, radiator hoses, etc.

I hate changing implements when using the three point, and I'm sure this tractor is like most using traditional connection methods, so after reading reviews think I'll upgrade to Pat's quick hitch. I just don't use it enough to get good at it. Will build a few steel frame structures to support the implements at the proper level for easier connection. Take care, Dean

 

[square1]

I would not part with mine

+1,000,000

 

[toukow]

My approach to the tractor is to replace stuff, where reasonable, before it breaks. Since hydraulic hoses take the tractor out of service,I'm replacing them. I assume 34 years of service is reasonable. I'm trying to do the things I'm not going to want or be able to do in retirement, and it beats buying a new tractor. On the other hand, I"m not out to throw money and labor away either.

Is it foolish to proactively replace the hydraulic pump seals BEFORE they fail? Or is that just asking for trouble without good reason? What do you think?

 

[JC-jetro]

Is it foolish to proactively replace the hydraulic pump seals BEFORE they fail? Or is that just asking for trouble without good reason? What do you think?

"If it ain't broke" I don't fix it, now you need to take that with a grain of salt also. I'm very much in to preventative stuff and that's why I still drive my 1995 Grand Caravan that is in a tip top shape with a bit of rust that I can't help and come with the age. They key is understanding of what you have and how it operates. As long as the pump is flooded with oil only thing can go wrong with the gear type pump is seal failure whether shaft or internal. One need to know the pump is live so anytime engine is on , pump is turning so if you have issue with hydraulic you can't keep driving the tractor and say I get to it when I get to it and your pump is toast. if you stop ,think about it, diagnose and fix and replace then you're in good shape. I'll try to reload the picture perhaps next week that I'm in travel status and need to burn time. We have the same type of pumps running in several facility for many years 24/7 (not on tractors) but same principal and they keep on running as long as heat is dissipated and they are flooded and not running dry. I would not dork with it. it might be prudent to get a seal kit purchased for a peace of mind when you need to do it. Shaft seal comes separate from the pump kit. On mine actually shaft seal was bad and the rest looked okay. I have seen Ford 1700 up to 4500 hrs on it with original pump.

JC,

 

[toukow]

. On mine actually shaft seal was bad and the rest looked okay. I have seen Ford 1700 up to 4500 hrs on it with original pump.

JC,

I figured in this type of application, time was as big a factor as engine hours on the pump. Case in point, the condition of the outer seals on the 770 loader were gone at 800 hours and 34 years. Thanks for the advice, Dean

 

[jix]

My approach to the tractor is to replace stuff, where reasonable, before it breaks. Since hydraulic hoses take the tractor out of service,I'm replacing them. I assume 34 years of service is reasonable. I'm trying to do the things I'm not going to want or be able to do in retirement, and it beats buying a new tractor. On the other hand, I"m not out to throw money and labor away either.

Is it foolish to proactively replace the hydraulic pump seals BEFORE they fail? Or is that just asking for trouble without good reason? What do you think?

I agree with your approach too. I do the same thing, but I leave the seals alone unless they begin to seep. it is asking for trouble to change out good seals on a small simple tractor the gets only light usage

 

[toukow]

Well, I thought I was done with the help of many of you, but I guess that's not the case. The pressure remains good at 2000 PSI measured off the three-point test fitting per the manual, but now the 700 loader reacts very slowly (especially the lift function), and seems to be hiccuping while in operation. I had rebuilt the tilt actuator on the loader, but had not touched the main control valve for the loader, so do not see that in the equation. I disconnected the back hoe, and actuation is still slow. All quick connects have been checked for poor connection

1. Someone mentioned the fluid in the backhoe which had been sitting may have clogged the system. Guess that's possible? It had been sitting outside for several years.
2. I assume the next step is to drain the transmission, and check the screen filter for clogging. Do you agree?
3. There is less than 40 hours on the new transmission fluid. If it looks good, would you just reuse it or just replace. Think it's $60 or so.

If I'm missing something as usual, please let me know. I assume with good pressure, that I must have a flow restriction of some sort. Thanks, Dean