Bio fuels... not the Holy Grail?

[deereman64]

A new study into biofuels makes the comment
"Biofuels could play an important role in cutting greenhouse gas emissions from transport, both in Britain and globally,but it would be disastrous if biofuel production made further inroads into biological diversity and natural ecosystems. We must not create new environmental or social problems in our efforts to deal with climate change."
Apparently, these experts now believe that only when we are able to use the complete plant will the benefits of biofuels really start to kick in and this will only occur after the development of 2nd generation plant forms which are still at least 5 years away.
So there ain't no quick fix.

[SkyPup]

Wall Street Journal also mentioned that the alternative biofuels market will be the next economic market to collaspe and tank out as it is overly infused with cash and unprofitable without government subsidies.

The production of gasoline is also going to decline and the production of diesel is going to increase. The Europeans are refining crude into diesel and selling the spare gasoline waste product over here,. Also, with the new CAFE fuel mileage improvements the refiners over here have no reason the invest more capital into gasoline production.

[radman1]

Originally Posted by SkyPup

Wall Street Journal also mentioned that the alternative biofuels market will be the next economic market to collaspe and tank out as it is overly infused with cash and unprofitable without government subsidies.

I live in Nebraska farm country and there are a lot of ethanol plants in this state. Many investors poured a lot of money into it and the goverment help and lack of taxation created the big push. Big tax incentives also given by state gov't. One recent plant near my farm land utilizes 250 semi loads of corn everyday, all year long. Others are bigger. Corn was under $2/bushel when it all started but now at $4.50/bushel. Ethanol can't make any profit unless gas prices climb much higher. All proformas were based on $2 corn. New ethanol plants have come to a screeching halt. I knew this was going to happen. I tried to tell many investors to put money elsewhere. Great for the farmers at this time but bubble will burst. I suspect many plants will go bankrupt and be resold and maybe then they will survive. An area plant opened 6 months ago and already bankrupt. Gov't is the only thing supporting ethanol plants. Soybeans are nearing $12/bushel-difficult to make biodiesel. Wheat is probably also at all time high. However, the effect on food prices is minimal since food processing, transportation and retail profits are the greatest cost of food production, not the basic ingredients.

[Tig]

Hmmm, I thought bio fuels were just an alternative to petroleum (which has to be imported). I did not realize that ethanol or biodiesel produced less greenhous gas. Is there much of a benefit?

[flusher]

Originally Posted by deereman64

A new study into biofuels makes the comment
"Biofuels could play an important role in cutting greenhouse gas emissions from transport, both in Britain and globally,but it would be disastrous if biofuel production made further inroads into biological diversity and natural ecosystems. We must not create new environmental or social problems in our efforts to deal with climate change."
Apparently, these experts now believe that only when we are able to use the complete plant will the benefits of biofuels really start to kick in and this will only occur after the development of 2nd generation plant forms which are still at least 5 years away.
So there ain't no quick fix.

The big problem with ethanol from corn, soybeans, etc is the water needed in the production process, about 20 gal H2O per gal of ethanol. That's a big negative here in CA where water is precious.

Apparently GM thinks there's going to be a breakthrough in ethanol technology according to this story:

STLtoday - Business - Manufacturing & Technology

The water-use problem may have been solved. If so, it looks like U. of Oklahoma and Oklahoma State are going to cash in big time.

[SkyPup]

Since January 2007, prices for the crops that make most biodiesel have doubled, driving the cost of a ton of biodiesel up 50%, to around $1,440 a ton, or about $4.80 a gallon. Prices for regular crude-oil-based diesel have risen sharply, too, but only to $840 a ton, or $2.80 a gallon. Biodiesel has become more expensive for oil companies to buy than fossil fuel, and they are cutting back.

Green lobbies are also turning against biodiesel. They now say that growing crops for biodiesel instead of food puts too much pressure on land and food prices. In Europe, 80% of biodiesel is made from rapeseed, a distinctive, yellow-flowered crop. Environmental groups also oppose imported palm-oil-based biodiesel from countries such as Malaysia and Indonesia, saying the rush to grow more oil palm trees is causing massive deforestation.

[Diesel-ME]

There is simply no magic way around the issue of energy consumption.

[warning - semi-off-tractor-topical diversion to follow, seeing as how ethanol is more of an auto fuel]

Alternative fuels sound like a great idea, but in the end the car companies who are still in business in 10-20 years will be the ones who actually worked on inventing technologies to SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the amount of fossil fuel required to drive their vehicles.

I'm starting to wonder if all this talk (not here in TBN, but in general) about ethanol is just a diversionary tactic of "big oil" and the idiots who are running GM/FORD/Chrysler in to bankruptcy - to make us all think that they are actually doing something. Same goes for the nice folks who we elect to represent us in Washington. lip service.....

Heck, another example is hydrogen. That *sounds* even better. The by-product of combustion is water. Well, unfortunately it takes more energy (electricity I believe) to extract hydrogen from water than you get back when you burn it.

None the less, it's important that the science and technology communities keep working on these issues as the fossil fuel reserves are no going to last forever.

On a more topical note - I see that several of the major tractor companies are certifying not just new machines but even late-model tractors to run B5 and B20. So that's good news if you are so inclined.

~Paul

[Turbys_1700]

Ethanol has 30% less BTU energy than gasoline...
Bio-diesel / diesel has 30% more BTU energy than gasoline...
So...
Our government promotes ethanol production...
Makes sense to me...

After that sarcastic intro, I think some push will be to equip car's with super hybrid technology...
Cars would run 40 miles on only battery power and then a small gas engine would kick in...
A report on the news stated that 80% of folk drive less than 40 miles per day to work...
The car has already been produced...
Estimated cost is 8K more than a conventional car...

Issues to me would be how much more load would this place on our power generating plants...
Coal is the one natural resource the USA has in abundance...
Also don't know how much it would cost in kilowats to recharge every night...
Plus the additional cost of replacement batteries eventually...

At least this tehcnology would shift the energy source from oil to coal or nuclear and would reduce our dependency on foreign oil...

[Z-Michigan]

Actually ethanol is about 34% below gasoline, and diesel is only about 12% more BTUs/gallon than gasoline. Biodiesel is slightly lower in BTU content than petroleum diesel, also.

But none of that really matters because you can't change the vehicle fleet overnight, and the recent diesel emissions standards make it difficult and expensive to make US-legal diesels.

Anyway....

I do like the hybrid idea with electric only for a while. I had a hybrid Civic for two years and it was a great car. But where the electricity comes from is important, and coal is the dirtiest fuel there is. Now if it came from nuclear or solar...

[Diesel-ME]

I like the idea of a plug-in hybrid. Depending on your commute you may be all electric at slower speeds, or maybe get part way there w/o burning gas.
But plug-in hybrid or full electric costs vary by state. The Northeast, for example, is not the most economical place to start: Electricity Prices by State

And as mentioned the electricity has to come from somewhere where something is burned or consumed to make the electricity. Of course some energy is cheap - but sometimes people take exception to wind farms changing their scenic vistas or hydro damns blocking the salmon, etc.... darn - there's always a trade-off.