ethanol

   / ethanol #21  
At 20 MPG, a person will spend about $20,000 for fuel over a 100,000 mile life-span of a car. Either than $20,000 is going to Hugo Chavez in Venezualia and Saudia Arabian oil sheeks, or

that $20,000 could be going to an American farmer in Iowa.


The problem is that out of the $20k, a big share goes to the government as taxes, another share goes to the station owners, another one to the oil company, and another one to the farmer. I don't know for sure, but I bet the farmer doesn't get the big share...
 
   / ethanol #22  
I agree with the idea of not importing fuel than can be sourced on this continent. Curly Dave, you are right about the distribution of the wealth. The farmer doesn't get a big share, but he makes a living.
 
   / ethanol #23  
It doesn't matter what the breakdown of the profits is, whatever portion that Saudi Arabia gets with petroleum crude, the American farmer gets that portion, instead, with Ethanol. Makes me a whole lot more interested in using E85 rather than gas in my Flex Fuel vehicle.:D

I also agree with James48843 about running problems. E85 is 110-118 Octane. Any running problems in a Flex fuel vehicle can only come from contaminated tanks at the gas station or a vehicle problem. My F150 runs like it has an electric motor when I use E85.
 
   / ethanol #24  
I'm so glad we are using this to lessen our dependence on foreign oil, this will show them Arabs!

Unless the technology improves it will show them nothing. Currently it takes 9 unit of fuel to make 10 units of ethanol. The impact on food prices and environment (like erosion and fertilizer run off) isn't worth the 10% yield.
There are new cellulose-based processes in the development though. May be then it will have some impact.
 
   / ethanol #25  
Unless the technology improves it will show them nothing. Currently it takes 9 unit of fuel to make 10 units of ethanol. The impact on food prices and environment (like erosion and fertilizer run off) isn't worth the 10% yield.
There are new cellulose-based processes in the development though. May be then it will have some impact.

Even if that is true that is a 10% reduction of imported energy. That is a big deal in my book considering that ethanol production is in it's infancy compared to the dino gasoline production.
 
   / ethanol #26  
Thanks for feedback on this....my '92 toyota has 185k on the engine, never used oil, 185 lb compression on all 4 cyl. started using 10% ethanol mix for a few years (now switched over to straight dyno gas)....but shows now shows typical signs of valve seal leakage (puff, & slight oil consumption) could the ethanol have attached the valve seals? thanks again bb

Ethanol fuel burns slower than straight gasoline. Therefore it requires greater ignition retardation. New engines have sensors that do that but your 92 might not be set up for it. If that is the case then when exhaust valve opens the fuel is still burning and will damage the valve seat.
 
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   / ethanol #27  
Even if that is true that is a 10% reduction of imported energy. That is a big deal in my book considering that ethanol production is in it's infancy compared to the dino gasoline production.

The problem is that ethanol will not decrease fuel import by 10% even if all corn is used for its production. But if we produce fuel from some waste (like Brazil uses waste from sugar production) it will make difference. In ex. fuel from corn stalks. Currently if you burn corn you get at least three times the energy than in ethanol produced from the same mass of corn. Therefore if all oil and gas burning furnaces were converted to burning corn or another pellets made from some waste it will have greater impact than ethanol fuel.
 
   / ethanol #28  
I know a guy who developed a fully automatic horse manure burning furnace. He boards horses and use it heat the stables in the winter. He was looking for a manufacturer few years back but I don't think it worked out for him.
 
   / ethanol #29  
Unfortunately ethanol is a boondoggle. Ethanol production from corn is a subsidized program that basically, at the bottom line, takes taxpayers $ and gives it to the methanol industry AND corn farmers. When all is said and done and you account for all the petroleum consumption in the production and distribution of ethanol (including but not limited to fertilizer, farmers diesel, transport diesel, and so forth, there is very little (some say if any) net gain.

Corn to ethanol serves as a means of diverting $ to farmers who in turn support the politicians who support the program. It also diverts lots of taxpayer's $ to the big ag outfits like ADM (Archer Daniels Midland: A Case Study In Corporate Welfare) who also support the politicians that keep the system in place.

This cabal is self serving and cares not one wit about reducing dependence on foreign oil and barely if at all results in a reduction of foreign oil consumption.

I'm all for sustainable renewable energy resources but ethanol from corn IS NOT IT. It is a travesty perpetuated through greed and influence. The public is deluded. Some of us like to "FEEL GREEN" and don't want to admit the Emperor is naked.

As for every little bit helps... Think of this. You are on the Titanic, it is sinking, the band is playing, some misguided do gooder organizes a bucket brigade and gets all the passengers and ships personnel to participate in the bucket brigade using a couple sewing thimbles for buckets. Hours pass and the members of the bucket brigade are bathed in sweat regardless of the chilly outside temps and are fatigued to the point of collapsing from exhaustion. Through their industrious and selfless participation they have: 1. slowed the sinking by less than a second, and 2. diverted every willing participant from doing something that might actually save some lives.

Corn to ethanol is like that. So long as the majority think it is "GREEN" and a good thing (while it actually is neither) there is insufficient impetus to get better processes in place. Processes such as cellulose to butanol for example. Butanol is much closer to gasoline in its attributes than ethanol, more energy density than ethanol BUT it would be made from cellulose. The early voting Iowa farmers and ADM don't have a lock on cellulose production. the Politicians in this cabal would lose their guaranteed votes and support because there are so many alternative sources for cellulose: scrap wood, grass, brush, recycled paper, and on and on.

I would just love to be able to run my vehicles on renewable green resource derived motor fuels and am willing to pay some premium to be able to do it. I'd be happy to see the US not import a single drop of petroleum and watch the attitudes of certain near eastern countries change. Unfortunately ethanol is NOT going to git 'er done.

Pat
 
   / ethanol #30  
As Duffster said, Ethanol production is in its infancy in comparison to petroleum product production. That is a VERY significant statement!

Is corn based Ethanol the answer: probably not. Is cellulosic Ethanol the answer: probably is. When we make Ethanol out of crop waste, garbage, etc and get a superior Ethanol product out of it, that may very well be the answer. There are new processes developed every day that are working toward that goal and provide low environmental impact. The key here is to allow the time for these processes to evolve.

The reason that Brazil fuels 85% of its vehicles with Ethanol is because they didn't listen to the naysayers that didn't think it would work. It's easier to denegrate everything and show lack of vision than it is to accept the challenge and work towards a goal and then finally achieve that goal.

Fortunately for those that enjoy air travel, the Wright brothers never listened to the naysayers and I hope that the public in America doesn't either.
 
 
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