Lawsuit regarding E15

   / Lawsuit regarding E15 #21  
one of the many downsides to owning a truck with a large fuel tank is that you get to stand at the pump for a long time as it fills. boredom sets in, so my eyes wander. i think every pump i use (generally mom and pop stores) has a sticker on the pump saying that it contains 10% ethanol. the sticker isn't large - about the size of a belt buckle (normal belt buckle, not texas sized), so it could be missed.

in my experience, people don't bother putting a small sticker on a pump out of the goodness of their heart - i would guess that it has to be displayed by law, or else it wouldn't be there. if it's not there, i would guess that it's not law where you live. i wouldn't go waving the conspiracy theory gauntlet yet. i doubt that anyone is not displaying it in order to hide what it is.

a very tiny percentage of the population knows anything more than "gas goes in my car". if they introduce another (not a replacement for e-10) fuel then in a few years you can expect a new nozzle size, and vehicles will have fill pipes limiting what will go in them. if you are old enough to remember the days when "regular" meant leaded fuel, not non-premium unleaded, then you will remember that vehicles requiring unleaded went to a restrictor in the fill pipe so people couldn't put the wrong fuel in by accident.

You bring up 'mom and pop' stations. Typically they sell 'unbranded gas' right? Usually 'no name' fuel? No "shell' or 'exxon' etc?

I found out recently that insurance companies are selling fuel from vehicles totalled out in accidents to companies who go around to salvage pools and suck the fuel out of the cars and pay the insurance companies for te fuel and then sell it to the 'mom and pop' unbranded stations,

The fuel as extracted from the salvage vehicles is all comingled without respect to grade, ethanol content, age etc. The company doing the extraction does not even filter the gas they extract before they sell ot to the unbranded stations.
 
   / Lawsuit regarding E15 #22  
For the record, I have NO PROBLEM with ethanol as a fuel, it is a "good" fuel, when used as directed and intended in products for which it was designed. I include "bio-diesel" in this discussion because it has serious storage limitations.

The EMA (Engine Manufacturers Association) and engine owners (that's us), should IMO, file suit in FEDERAL COURT to FORCE the availability of "neat" gasoline ((R+M/2) 87) for "non-road" and pre-1980 on-road engines. Also, we should include bio-diesel in the discussion and legislation. I will use "Bio-fuel" below to expressly INCLUDE both Ethanol and Bio-diesel, regardless of the source of the renewal portion.

If you own a "modern" vehicle it will run E10 just fine and many will operate on E15 as well. They have been doing E15 in MN for many years, although few know it because the pumps say "up to 10% Ethanol" leading unsuspecting consumers to *assume* the fuel contains no more than 10% Ethanol, which is NOT the case from November to April.

The LAW should be:

The actual Bio-content of all fuels sold is to be displayed on the pump at every retail location and shall ACCURATELY reflect the "Bio" content of the fuel dispensed in an "NTE" format. That is, the fuel's "Bio" content is "Not To Exceede" the content displayed on the coorisponding dispensing pump by any measurable amount. The amount of "Bio-content" must be shown as a percentage of the total fuel volume in letters not less than 2" tall. Voilations of this rule will result in criminal fines and restitution for equipment damage if proven in a court of "small claims" before a Judge.

Additionally, retail fueling establishments choosing not to carry non-Biocontent fuel (neat gasoline and/or diesel, 0% bio-content) shall be REQUIRED to clearly post 5 nearby retail locations where such fuel can be purchased. Information on such location is to include the business name, address and phone number with a map indicating such location that can be easily located and viewed from the ground by persons looking for such information. One posting per retail pump unit is required.

All Government Legislative and Executive bodies are PROHIBITED from requiring the compulsory use of Bio-containing fuels in privately owned "non-road" engines regardless of date of manufacture, or those installed in gasoline powered vehicles built before 01 January 1980 or diesel powered vehicles built before 01 January 2004. Such bodies are expressly permitted to require compulsory use of Bio-containing fuels in PUBLICALLY owned equipment but not in any amount greater than permitted by the applicable OEM.

Now, that should "fix 'em"!

The only thing I would add to that would be to require stations selling blends to post locations of stations selling non-blended fuels. If there are any.:( I don't know of any in our area. Every station has the stickers on the pumps.:mad:
 
   / Lawsuit regarding E15 #23  
The only thing I would add to that would be to require stations selling blends to post locations of stations selling non-blended fuels. If there are any.:( I don't know of any in our area. Every station has the stickers on the pumps.:mad:

Here is one of several sites that track stations with "real gas"

Find ethanol free gas near you!
 
   / Lawsuit regarding E15 #24  
Here is one of several sites that track stations with "real gas"

Find ethanol free gas near you!

Thanks. I find 2 within about 150 miles. The closest is about 35 miles and the next is about 85 miles from here. Only 6 locations shown in the whole state. That explains why I haven't seen it.:laughing:
 
   / Lawsuit regarding E15 #25  
My 2010 model Makita/Dolmar DCS510 chain saw has this in the manual-

"In order to obtain an optimum engine output and to protect
your health and the environment use unleaded fuel only.
Gasoline which contains alcohol should not used in
MAKITA products
."

I really have no problem with people wanting ethanol blended gas, I just don't think it should be forced onto those that don't. I'm fortunate in that several stations within 10 miles of me sell neat gasoline, thats all I buy for everything except the SUV. So far it hasn't presented any problems with ethanol gas except reduced fuel mileage. I had many small engine carb problems with the ethanol blend.
 
   / Lawsuit regarding E15 #26  
Talk to anyone who does small engine repair or marine engine repair.

Yes, it's probably not too big of an issue with cars that use up a tank of gas before it gets stale. But in the humid marine environment, the ethanol soaks up water vapor, which damages engines. Same for small engines (lawn mowers, chain saws, etc.) which may sit for longer periods of time. Ethanol is bad for carburerators, gaskets, etc.

Maybe you are such that you do not have any such engines.

Furthermore, the ethanol scam isn't doing anything to protect the environment. Even Al Gore has admitted his pushing it was for political purposes and had nothing to do with the environment.

1) my chainsaws are run dry before storing
2) Lawn is mowed every week
3) haven't been able to get straight unleaded here for quite some time, so I would think issues would be non-stop and they are not. If you go back a few years HEET used to be sold as a gas line antifreeze( although that was Methanol). And maybe it is still sold, don't know. Isn't needed with ethanol anyway.
4) I was unaware of an E15 mandate for marine use
5) Gaskets,seals, etc. have been compatible for at least the last 20years.
Alcohol does affect steel and aluminum-in raw form
I love the 100+ octane of E 85 in my race engines. $2.50 gal beats 5-7 bucks any day.
I really don't care if ethanol protects the environment or is a mere wash, it is an alternative to Middle eastern oil.
 
   / Lawsuit regarding E15 #27  
You bring up 'mom and pop' stations. Typically they sell 'unbranded gas' right? Usually 'no name' fuel? No "shell' or 'exxon' etc?

I found out recently that insurance companies are selling fuel from vehicles totalled out in accidents to companies who go around to salvage pools and suck the fuel out of the cars and pay the insurance companies for te fuel and then sell it to the 'mom and pop' unbranded stations,

The fuel as extracted from the salvage vehicles is all comingled without respect to grade, ethanol content, age etc. The company doing the extraction does not even filter the gas they extract before they sell ot to the unbranded stations.

i'm not an expert on the "unbranded" definition. i guess i never really thought about it, but i always worked on the theory that it just meant that they were not locked to a brand, and they could negotiate with whoever would give them the best deal.

it wouldn't surprise me that some creative recycling was being done now, but i would be surprised that you are getting all recycled fuel. the volumes of fuel that are sold by even one station are pretty staggering, even here in the boonies. i don't think there are enough wrecked cars to mean that you could be getting more than a few drops of mystery fuel per gallon. sure, used fuel may be old, but how long does some fuel sit in big storage tanks before being used? it's also having more fuel added on a constant basis, so that old fuel is mixed with a lot of new fuel.

as far as not being graded or separated by ethanol content, well, i suppose it would be pretty hard to tell what was in any given wrecked car, but i think that would go back to my thought that the volume is so low that it's not making much of a difference. since all these stations sell multiple grades of fuel, any recycled would have to be considered to be the lowest grade, otherwise there would be claims of fraud if they tried to pass it off as higher octane than it was.
 
   / Lawsuit regarding E15 #28  
1) my chainsaws are run dry before storing
2) Lawn is mowed every week
3) haven't been able to get straight unleaded here for quite some time, so I would think issues would be non-stop and they are not. If you go back a few years HEET used to be sold as a gas line antifreeze( although that was Methanol). And maybe it is still sold, don't know. Isn't needed with ethanol anyway.
4) I was unaware of an E15 mandate for marine use
5) Gaskets,seals, etc. have been compatible for at least the last 20years.
Alcohol does affect steel and aluminum-in raw form
I love the 100+ octane of E 85 in my race engines. $2.50 gal beats 5-7 bucks any day.
I really don't care if ethanol protects the environment or is a mere wash, it is an alternative to Middle eastern oil.

The oil companies want you/us to believe it is the Middle East that is bumping the prices up... it's a bunch of B.S. The amount of oil we import from OPEC is minimal.

Where does the U.S. get their oil from?

http://www.sustainer.org/dhm_archive/index.php?display_article=vn355energyfactsed

Oil Industry Statistics from Gibson Consulting - imports/exports
 
   / Lawsuit regarding E15 #29  
Talk to anyone who does small engine repair or marine engine repair.

You're obviously making a huge assumption here. The last time I went to work and didn't work on a small engine, (or big engine for that matter), was 1983 or so.

I'm not an ethanol advocate or cheerleader by any means, but the vast majority of fuel problems associated with any engine could be avoided if the owner followed the manufacturers' recommendations.

Far and away the biggest fuel-related problem I see, is improper storage practices. You can take a guy that's still using his small engine storage regimen from 15-20 years ago as an example. Gasoline doesn't store like it used to. Blended fuels add a new wrinkle to the game. The guy that absolutely refuses to adhere to the current fueling and storage practices printed in the manual for a specific piece of equipment will end up having a whole lot of easily-avoidable problems. And the sad reality is, those problems will need to be blamed on something other than the role the owner played.

I've got equipment and vehicles which were made before they started selling the blended crud all over the place. The manuals don't even address blended fuels. Does that mean that there's no issue??? Heck, some of my stuff was made before there was even unleaded gas. How's the manual supose to warn about something which didn't exist when the equipment was made?

We probably all have pieces of equipment like that. I work on all of our stuff, and a lot of customers' stuff as well every day. One of the reasons a 10% blend plateau was originally decided upon, was that it was a blend percentage that could safely be used without causing issues. They didn't throw darts at balloons and happen to pop the one with "10%" under it to arrive at a number.....testing was done. That's how the 10% number was arrived at, and that's my point about the 15% number everyone is so afraid of. Manufacturers tell you going above 10% isn't okay. If someone else mandates otherwise, there'll be a legal mess to deal with. It isn't really difficult to ascertain the alcohol percentage in a fuel sample. You guys that think they're going to start selling it at 15% and simply choose not to label it as such are just being silly here. 15% blends will cause problems when used in stuff it isn't supposed to be used in. When those problems occur, the first thing an owner or his legal representation will do, is get a fuel sample from one of these "unlabeled" pumps and prove what the alcohol content is.

I've seen pictures and posts all over the 'net about the plethora of problems 10% blends have allegedly caused. I've even dealt with quite a few situations at work in which someone else's original diagnosis of "ETHANOL!!!" has been proven wrong when a machine comes back in a second time and gets assigned to me to fix. After the actual problem is repaired, the owner goes back about his business and using the same fuel with no more issues. But guess what happened before that? He picked up his machine after paying for a repair. Someone asked him what the "problem" was, and he replied with "ethanol" because that's what he was told. Then the issue occurs again, and the owner and others around see that the "ethanol" problem is still there....and the word spreads like wildfire. After the *real* problem gets fixed on the second visit to the shop, the word that ethanol wasn't ever the problem at all doesn't spread like wildfire for some reason. I can't quite figure that out.

And then we end up with threads like this.

;)
 
   / Lawsuit regarding E15 #30  
Gasoline doesn't store like it used to. Blended fuels add a new wrinkle to the game. The guy that absolutely refuses to adhere to the current fueling and storage practices printed in the manual for a specific piece of equipment will end up having a whole lot of easily-avoidable problems. And the sad reality is, those problems will need to be blamed on something other than the role the owner played.

I think you just confirmed what we are saying.

As for "follow the manual"...yeah, right! "Drain the tank". How does one do that without a safety or environmental risk? Oh I guess you can run it until it's empty, if you don't mind standing there holding the safety bail for 20 or 40 minutes. And gain, that's wasting resources and making unnecessary pollution.

No, I'm not very good at judging how much fuel to add to cut the lawn or cut up a tree. I hate running out of fuel and having to walk back to get more.

Ken
 
 
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