New diesel older motors
- Thread starter NHSawyer
- Start date
ModMech
Platinum Member
Please allow me to clear up some mis-understanding and inaccurate information, I have been involved in ordering fuels, maintaining fleets and management for 25+ years.
ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) is an EPA mandate, current sulfur levels are mandated to be a maximum of 15ppm.
LSD (Low sulfur Diesel) has a 500 ppm sulfur limit, this came about in 1994 and there was a LOT of fear mongering about the claimed lubricity loss due to the "lower" sulfur content.
#2D is essentially "unregulated sulfur content" diesel, can be used in OFF-ROAD applications only and is not generally available at all, even when marketed as off-road or farm diesel. Typical sulfur content is 3500 - 5000 ppm.
The FACTS:
Most diesel fuel systems in OUR tractors are either made by Bosch or a licencee of Bosch. The EU has been using 85 ppm fuel SINCE THE '80s with no determintal affects.
The lubricity is established by the ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials), the lubricity standards (amount of allowed wear) has remained relatively constant over the years, but standards have tightened recently allowing even less wear than before. Refiners must produce fuel that meets ASTM standards and the most commonly quoted is ASTM-D975 for diesel. There are newer standards that address bio-diesel as well.
BioD is EXCELLANT in terms of lower soot and greater lubricity than spec fuels.
There is no such thing as "tune-up in a can" and the statement "Recomended for use in...." is NOT AT ALL the same as "Recomended for use BY.....(some OEM).
What fuel systems are sensative to lubricity? Detroit "rack" type unit injectors, CAT "Sleeve metering" systems and Cummins PT systems. Not ONE is used in our tractors!
There are REAL concerns with ULSD in engines that operated on LSD for extended periods because some refiners punked us and ustalized waste engine oil as a lubricity addative in this fuel. This is why you get a black line on your filters! When changing to ULSD that oil is removed from the seals over time and they can begin to leak. They WOULD HAVE LEAKED EARLIER if not for the waste oil keeping them expanded. The LSD gets blamed but the seal had failed already but was masked by the swelling.
ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) is an EPA mandate, current sulfur levels are mandated to be a maximum of 15ppm.
LSD (Low sulfur Diesel) has a 500 ppm sulfur limit, this came about in 1994 and there was a LOT of fear mongering about the claimed lubricity loss due to the "lower" sulfur content.
#2D is essentially "unregulated sulfur content" diesel, can be used in OFF-ROAD applications only and is not generally available at all, even when marketed as off-road or farm diesel. Typical sulfur content is 3500 - 5000 ppm.
The FACTS:
Most diesel fuel systems in OUR tractors are either made by Bosch or a licencee of Bosch. The EU has been using 85 ppm fuel SINCE THE '80s with no determintal affects.
The lubricity is established by the ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials), the lubricity standards (amount of allowed wear) has remained relatively constant over the years, but standards have tightened recently allowing even less wear than before. Refiners must produce fuel that meets ASTM standards and the most commonly quoted is ASTM-D975 for diesel. There are newer standards that address bio-diesel as well.
BioD is EXCELLANT in terms of lower soot and greater lubricity than spec fuels.
There is no such thing as "tune-up in a can" and the statement "Recomended for use in...." is NOT AT ALL the same as "Recomended for use BY.....(some OEM).
What fuel systems are sensative to lubricity? Detroit "rack" type unit injectors, CAT "Sleeve metering" systems and Cummins PT systems. Not ONE is used in our tractors!
There are REAL concerns with ULSD in engines that operated on LSD for extended periods because some refiners punked us and ustalized waste engine oil as a lubricity addative in this fuel. This is why you get a black line on your filters! When changing to ULSD that oil is removed from the seals over time and they can begin to leak. They WOULD HAVE LEAKED EARLIER if not for the waste oil keeping them expanded. The LSD gets blamed but the seal had failed already but was masked by the swelling.
PoorMansCat
Platinum Member
Pretty much every type of diesel fuel injection system is sensitive to "lack of lubricity". HPCR pumps and injectors will fail almost immediately from a lack of lubricity.... Bosch VE pumps will fail, VP pumps will fail, HEUI, MUI, EUI will all fail.... as long as they have moving parts that are lubricated by diesel fuel, they can/will fail from the lack of lubricity...
Interesting that diesel fuel suppliers have been adding waste oil to LSD for lubricity... I guess I always assumed it was some sort of oil, but never thought they could get a consistent chemical formula out of waste oil.... or maybe they didnt bother keeping it consistent..??? who knows..???
ModMech
Platinum Member
The ASTM standards are there to establish a minimum level of lubricity, one that the OEMs agree to. You don't see issues with any of those pump types, unless there is a problem with moisture or other fuel contamination, except in rare cases. The system types I listed are far more suseptable to problems using current fuels.
In fact, that is an excellant point, the old PT, Rach and Sleeve Metering systems has VERY low injection pressues by today's standards but the material were so cheap that they have durability concerns on current fuels where modern HPCR systems operating at 33,000 PSI do not - using ONLY fuel as a coolant and lubricant.
PoorMansCat
Platinum Member
About the only issue i've been seeing since the sulphur content changes that have been consistent is a dramatic increase in fuel system component leakage. This is evident in some cases even with newer designed seal materials... The older fuel systems were designed with "thicker" diesel fuel... That old oily feeling fuel that we loved so much....
Even mechanical joints like line connectors tend to leak/weep more. Havent seen any issue with "cheap materials" causing leaks/failures... but I have seen water put one in the grave in under a minute.... Seen gasoline do it about as quick....
ModMech
Platinum Member
Leaks are generally not because of the fuel, but additives, or lack there of, IN the fuel which allow the seals to dry out. A properly designed fuel system will have quality seals that are unaffected by commercially available fuels or addatives, now and in the *forseeable* future. That is where some of the problems are, the systems were designed before some of the current specs were forseeable and therefore can be compromized more easily then others.
jonyyuma
Elite Member
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2010
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- 35 miles North of Memphis,TN
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- kubota L3000dt, ford 8n1952
We certainly are having our share of leaks and troubles with the last batch of cummings and cat gen sets. Injector pumps mostly. Some 4's, 6's and V-8's.