Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 29101112
Results 111 to 117 of 117
  1. #111
    Super Member crazyal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,782
    Location
    Northern Vermont

    Default Re: Oil Filter Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by clemsonfor View Post
    As of right now i dont go looking for frams to use but if it is on a deal i get i use it on one of the older vehicles. I have to admit most of my hesitance is from this internet "lore" of them, BUT i do admit that looking into the filters i sometimes see plastic in them when i use to see metal in the same application, which has driven me away more than the so called falure stories that you hear on the net.. Massey being the first to actually say that it happened to him on one of his vehicles with a fram.
    The problem is that just because a part failed it doesn't mean that it was the cause of the failure. For example, if you run an engine without oil and you throw a rod you wouldn't blame the rod. However if the rod was defective and broke then you would blame it. The same is true for filters. People want to blame something but rarely actually take the time to find out what happened. When you see a spin on filter that's been cut open and the filter media has collapsed it's usually from one of two different failures. The first is that the filter's internal pressure relief valve didn't open while the second is that the oil pumps internal pressure regulation valve stuck closed.

    Oil filter relief valves are usually set to about 12 psi. Since they just look at the pressure before and after the filter media (not the over all pressure) they are set to work with the type of media the filter. They are designed to deal with things like cold oil that will not flow through the media fast enough. Quick revving of the engine sending a rush of oil into the filter that creates a quick, but temporary, pressure spike, and for when the media or oil is old and dirty.

    The oil pump pressure regulator is like the hydraulic pressure regulator on your tractor. It's job is to not let the hydraulic system's pressure go beyond a specific level. In your tractor it's probably 2500 psi or so. In your engine it's probably 80 psi or less. When working correctly and bleeding off extra pressure it's also allowing extra oil to flow back into the oil pan. When it fails it will send a spike in both pressure and oil flow into the filter. Filters are not designed to handle the increased flow and collapse. If the regulator valve stays stuck it can actually swell the steel sides of the filter housing and even blow out the filter gasket. If it's temporary and the regulator valve starts working again you may not notice, you may notice if you cut open the filter, or it could do enough damage to the filter so it blocks oil flow destroying the engine. An engine builder told me that older engines with bearings with wear on them are more likely to suffer a collapsed filter media since the oil has less resistance after the filter.

    I was told when I was racing that special race filters were designed with regulator failures in mind and could flow the extra oil because they have an extra large oil bypass valve in the filter to deal with the high RPMs and sudden engine acceleration that race engines often see. I have yet to see any of these filter comparisons actually try to measure how much oil can flow through the bypass. It could be possible that the Fram filters do not allow enough oil to flow in bypass mode and that's why some fail or it could be simply because they are the most popular filter (because of their low price and abundance of sellers).

    You're best defense is to change your oil and filter often no matter the brand or type of oil. Clean new oil will flow through a filter much easier than older oil. Older filter media will be partially blocked by the contaminates it has filtered out of the system. The more engine hours the more plugged it will be. In reality it's very rare and if you look around the internet you can find an example of almost every brand that has failed.
    Kubota L4240,Case 580K backhoe, Case 450 Dozer

  2. #112
    Elite Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,796
    Location
    .
    Tractor
    .

    Default Re: Oil Filter Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyal View Post
    When you see a spin on filter that's been cut open and the filter media has collapsed it's usually from one of two different failures. The first is that the filter's internal pressure relief valve didn't open while the second is that the oil pumps internal pressure regulation valve stuck closed.
    In my case, when the Fram oil filter I posted about previously had failed, it was found that the filter's internal pressure relief valve didn't open as it should have. The oil pump was tested prior to dis-assembly and found to be working normally. In fact, the oil pump was undamaged and re-used after the engine was repaired, with no ill effects. In other words, I am 100% certain that the Fram oil filter was the case of the engine failure.
    .

  3. #113
    Super Member crazyal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,782
    Location
    Northern Vermont

    Default Re: Oil Filter Comparison

    A number of GM engines have their own internal oil bypass valve designed into the engine. Usually it's in the casting that the filter screws into. If you take the year, the model, and engine size to a web site like RockAuto.com you can do a quick search. If the engine was designed with the over pressure/ bypass valve built into the engine, not the filter then they should list the valve and even may have a picture of it.

    What I've heard happens is companies like Fram cheap out. They just rely on the engines own bypass valve to work when needed and will use a filter that doesn't have the correct bypass valve. If you look at this picture from mike.
    Oil Filter Comparison-304800d1361561166-oil-filter-comparison-untitled
    The sheet metal spring in that picture is the pressure relief valve. That filter's bypass is only designed to work in one direction. Oil must flow into the center of the filter.
    In the second picture is a bypass valve that will work with oil flowing in both directions.
    Oil Filter Comparison-394427884.jpg
    Lots of ifs here but if your engine had an internal oil bypass valve and Fram cheaped out and spec'd a filter that didn't have the 2 way bypass valve then your engine was doomed once the internal valve failed. If your Fram filter did have a back up two way bypass valve and both failed, that's bad luck. If your engine didn't have an internal bypass valve then clearly the Fram filter failed you.
    Kubota L4240,Case 580K backhoe, Case 450 Dozer

  4. #114
    Super Member 94BULLITT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    6,522
    Location
    Frederick County, VA
    Tractor
    Kubota BX2360 & L4240 HSTC

    Default Re: Oil Filter Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyal View Post
    A number of GM engines have their own internal oil bypass valve designed into the engine. Usually it's in the casting that the filter screws into. If you take the year, the model, and engine size to a web site like RockAuto.com you can do a quick search. If the engine was designed with the over pressure/ bypass valve built into the engine, not the filter then they should list the valve and even may have a picture of it.

    What I've heard happens is companies like Fram cheap out. They just rely on the engines own bypass valve to work when needed and will use a filter that doesn't have the correct bypass valve. If you look at this picture from mike.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	304800d1361561166-oil-filter-comparison-untitled-2.jpg 
Views:	122 
Size:	70.9 KB 
ID:	305637
    The sheet metal spring in that picture is the pressure relief valve. That filter's bypass is only designed to work in one direction. Oil must flow into the center of the filter.
    In the second picture is a bypass valve that will work with oil flowing in both directions.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	394427884.jpg 
Views:	517 
Size:	139.9 KB 
ID:	305638
    Lots of ifs here but if your engine had an internal oil bypass valve and Fram cheaped out and spec'd a filter that didn't have the 2 way bypass valve then your engine was doomed once the internal valve failed. If your Fram filter did have a back up two way bypass valve and both failed, that's bad luck. If your engine didn't have an internal bypass valve then clearly the Fram filter failed you.
    The sheet metal spring is just for assembly, to hold against the bottom. The bypass is in the bottom. I think that the sheet metal spring over time will collapse and allow the filter to bypass. I have taken them off and heard them rattle. I think it is a poor design.
    Roger

    Kubota BX2360 & Kubota L4240 with paddle shifter, suicide doors and 24's
    Past Stuff: Ford 8N, Cub Cadet 2206, Bobcat CT235

    My Threads

    EA Wicked Grapple Build - 3PH Pallet Mover - Harbor Freight QH Mods - L4240 Upgrades - BX2360 Upgrades- How Add a Switch to a Worklight

    My YouTube Channel

  5. #115
    Super Member crazyal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,782
    Location
    Northern Vermont

    Default Re: Oil Filter Comparison

    Oil Filter Comparison-oil_filter_exploded_view.jpg
    To reduce the price Fram just combined the bypass valve and spring into one plate so they didn't need the coil spring.
    Kubota L4240,Case 580K backhoe, Case 450 Dozer

  6. #116
    Platinum Member sd455dan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    816
    Location
    North Idaho
    Tractor
    Ford 3000-Rhino 554,Co-Op ,Honda ,Gilson riding mowers

    Default Re: Oil Filter Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by buickanddeere View Post
    I worked maintenance at Pertro Canada on SouthDown Road Mississauga. Got to know the staff in the gasoline and lube oil test labs. Spent some time in there working on equipment. I can assure you that every tanker of 10W-30 lube oil,ATF and even wheel bearing grease is a unique and propriatory formulation. That GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyoto and Honda etc specified. One size does not fit all.
    That wood seem to apply to the oil filters to be used on certain Dodge trucks with the Cummins engine .The pistons have oil cooling holes in them and some oil filter manufacturers sell filters that are compatible (they fit). but when the non cellulose seal breaks down and is carried thru the oil system and makes its home in those cooling jets. It won't be Dodge who pays to rebuild or replace a cooked engine that normally would be expected to last in more than 350,000 miles... I admit this is an extreme example but it has happened...

  7. #117
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    157
    Location
    Nebraska
    Tractor
    Kubota B2400 HST

    Default Re: Oil Filter Comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by brokenot View Post
    If an engine manufacturer comes up with a specification for an engine oil or filter, (or anything else for that matter), they don't come up with that set of specifications based upon the end-user operating that engine with kid gloves only under the optimum set of circumstances. Any "minimum spec" any engine manufacturer comes up with for an appropriate oil or filter, means that that specification is adequate.

    Far too much of this "minimum spec" nonsense is used to sell stuff that isn't necessary and will provide no benefits. It's just as ridiculous as making a similar statement about a "minimum spec" for sizing the wiring in your home for a receptacle being inadequate.

    So-called "minimum specs" simply are not teetering on the brink of failiure like some folks, (and companies), want to you believe.
    If the minimum wasn't good enough there wouldn't be a minimum.

Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 29101112

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-22-2012, 06:50 PM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-12-2011, 10:02 AM
  3. oil comparison?????????
    By whitearrow in forum Oil, Fuel & Lubricants
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-16-2006, 11:44 PM
  4. 284 LE oil & filter exchange & tilling comparison
    By corey in forum Chinese Tractors
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08-09-2005, 02:13 PM
  5. Kubota OEM and WIX (Dana) Oil filter comparison
    By DelfinoTX in forum Oil, Fuel & Lubricants
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-10-2005, 12:55 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
© 2013 TractorByNet.com. TractorByNet is a registered trademark of IMC Digital Universe, Inc. Other trademarks on this page are the property of their respective owners.