The age old question .....Synthetic or not

[Copperhead]

In my Detroit Series 60, I used Delo 400 LE 15w40 since I got it. Decided to run a couple of oil changes using full synthetic Delo 400 LE 5w40 that I could get at a moderate price at local Wally World. I have always done regular oil sampling since I got the engine. After running the synthetic for two complete oil change cycles, there was no appreciable difference between it and that conventional oil. No mpg benefits, no change in wear numbers, and no real change in TBN depletion rate, no change in viscosity rate fluctuation. Virtually identical oil sample results over the same interval. No brainer. After 40,000 miles, 800 hrs of using the synthetic, the truck just went back to conventional Delo. No use throwing money away for no gain.

Maybe there is something to Delo's marketing when they say their ISOSYN technology in their conventional oil rivals synthetic performance. I sure saw no difference.

 

[3930dave]

In my Detroit Series 60, I used Delo 400 LE 15w40 since I got it. Decided to run a couple of oil changes using full synthetic Delo 400 LE 5w40 that I could get at a moderate price at local Wally World. I have always done regular oil sampling since I got the engine. After running the synthetic for two complete oil change cycles, there was no appreciable difference between it and that conventional oil. No mpg benefits, no change in wear numbers, and no real change in TBN depletion rate, no change in viscosity rate fluctuation. Virtually identical oil sample results over the same interval. No brainer. After 40,000 miles, 800 hrs of using the synthetic, the truck just went back to conventional Delo. No use throwing money away for no gain.

Maybe there is something to Delo's marketing when they say their ISOSYN technology in their conventional oil rivals synthetic performance. I sure saw no difference.

Good test. In a commercial app like yours, if you can't push the OCI out with synth, then the #'s may not work for you.

In Canada, I find decent synth is often on sale, ends up being less than a decent Conventional list price here. I just stock up, when I find a sale on synth. I won't say that conventional never goes on sale here, but being a lower margin item, not too often.

I've always heard good things about Delo.

Don't know anything about Detroits, but I know my 7.3 likes a good 5W40, up here (Canada) in snow season.

I have and will run a good 15W40 here in Summer, in that engine.

Rgds, D.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Not Synthetic is becoming my new thought especially on older diesel engines and even older gas engines with the flat tappets just to get the higher zinc numbers these engines were design to see in the motor oil.

At the same time others are say other wear improvements in new oils lowers the zinc requirement for older engines.

The other evening I had about 30 minutes open in my places to be and spent the time at WM reviewing ratings of diesel rated motor oils. All but one cared the API SM rating for use in GAS engines. My older gas engines called for SG that called for the zinc package to be 1200-1300 ppm(?)

The ONLY motor oil that appearred to be high in zinc was Ford Motorcraft diesel motor oil. It carried NO rating for gas engine and stated DO NOT USE in any vehicle with a catalytic converter. That I expect meant HIGH zinc content additive package.

I plan to research the Ford Diesel motor oil and may bend it with 5W-40 Rotella in the old big block gas and old diesel engines. Currently they are are running pure 5W-40 Rotella. The 1976 265 MF tractor engine is more quite with the 5W-40 than the 15w-40 Rotella to my ears. It may be injector pump that chatters less.

It is easy to confuse one's self about motor oils.

Bobtheoilguy site has so much nonsense on it due to bickering to me it has lost its validity on understand motor oil issues. What I mean is it is hard for me to sort out the facts from the fiction. Actually it all may be factual but guys are talking apples and oranges applications at the same time.

 

[3930dave]

Not Synthetic is becoming my new thought especially on older diesel engines and even older gas engines with the flat tappets just to get the higher zinc numbers these engines were design to see in the motor oil.

At the same time others are say other wear improvements in new oils lowers the zinc requirement for older engines.

The other evening I had about 30 minutes open in my places to be and spent the time at WM reviewing ratings of diesel rated motor oils. All but one cared the API SM rating for use in GAS engines. My older gas engines called for SG that called for the zinc package to be 1200-1300 ppm(?)

The ONLY motor oil that appearred to be high in zinc was Ford Motorcraft diesel motor oil. It carried NO rating for gas engine and stated DO NOT USE in any vehicle with a catalytic converter. That I expect meant HIGH zinc content additive package.

I plan to research the Ford Diesel motor oil and may bend it with 5W-40 Rotella in the old big block gas and old diesel engines. Currently they are are running pure 5W-40 Rotella. The 1976 265 MF tractor engine is more quite with the 5W-40 than the 15w-40 Rotella to my ears. It may be injector pump that chatters less.

It is easy to confuse one's self about motor oils.

Bobtheoilguy site has so much nonsense on it due to bickering to me it has lost its validity on understand motor oil issues. What I mean is it is hard for me to sort out the facts from the fiction. Actually it all may be factual but guys are talking apples and oranges applications at the same time.

I know I may sound like a broken record, but checkout Amsoil if you haven't already. I still don't sell it , not why I mention this...... just always appreciate a supplier that can zig, when most others zag.....

ex. their HDD for pre-2007 Diesels. Can't remember the SL limits, but I've always got prompt responses when asking ZDDP related questions from the Amsoil Tech support. TBN is high on the HDD too.

AMSOIL Series 3000 SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel Oil

There is always their Zrod, designed for gas flat tappets applications.

I never have time for snippey nonsense, neither in real life, or on these 'net boards. BITOG is often pretty clean, esp. compared to average sites, but I just skip a thread if it gets that way.

I'll check the Virgin oil analyses posted there, as a sanity check on Manufacturer data, or as an initial stake in the ground in cases where the oil co. will not supply any data.

The Used analysis reports can be interesting, to see how things stand up with a given engine under specific conditions (extended runs, heavy towing, race use, bypass filtration, storage time.....).

Then again, I've got lots of cold winter nights to deal with, up North here..... :cold: roposetoast: :biggrin: and there's only something on TV that interests me about every 5'th blue moon....

There is plenty more I need to understand about oil additive science, esp. the newer add packs. I've got more reading to do.....

BITOG is the same as most sites, there are a few posters that can be counted on to consistently give balanced and meaningful assessments of a particular oil analysis question. For stuff I don't understand initially, I usually start with their comments, and research from there, or just accept as a trusted source for the time being.

But yes, it can get a little convoluted over there, and it is not always the science that is the issue.

Same can be said for most sites though....

Please keep us posted on what Secret Sauce you end up settling on Gale, the Motorcraft option sounds like a good one.

Rgds, D.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Some ZDDP education

Above is the full text source of the quote below.
"'Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.- Thanks to Bob Olree GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group "

I am going to run with source this until I get different data. The bottom line per this 'GM' claiming source is as explained in detail the 800 ppm of zinc additive package is all that was ever needed to protect flat tappets and more was added for other reasons so the newest API standard for gas engines WILL protect flat tappets as well as any motor oil API standard ever produced.

The plan is to stick with 5W-40 Rotella in the tractors and big block Ford and Chevy and other things around the place like mowers etc.

I will work my way to Mobil 1 5W-30 for the 2003 5.3L GM engine with 126K miles.

Short of it is that the need for high zinc for flat tappets is a MYTH.

http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/engineoilguide_march2010.pdf
API Gas/Diesel chart.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1049812
This restates some of the first link but also covers other OIL Myths.

 

[Copperhead]

I have tried Amsoil in previous heavy diesels I had and was not impressed. With an Cummins ISX I had, using the AME, I actually got far higher lead wear numbers. Put it into the alert status on the oil sample reports. The DEO stuff has done a pretty good job in my Jeep Liberty Diesel. But the Delo 400 LE synthetic has done a good job in the Jeep also.

Amsoil makes some good stuff, but it is not cost effective in all applications. Especially when we are talking about 10 gallon oil sump capacities. And there are some decent competitors to the Amsoil line that offer better pricing with similar results. You put data sheets side by side, and it is difficult to see any substantive difference between Amsoil's DEO and Delo 400 LE synthetic. Just in cold pour points, we are only talking about 4 degrees difference. Both are ester based oils. I can get the Delo version for $19.98 per gallon at Wally World, while the Amsoil DEO is $30.40 a gallon at preferred customer pricing (still have to add in sales tax and shipping... ouch). Even in Amsoil's own testing, the Delo version came closest to Amsoil in performance. So which would you buy? And since the Delo conventional is giving me almost the exact same performance as the Delo synthetic, it becomes and even bigger cost difference. I can get the Delo conventional at Wally World for right around $12 a gallon. Now let's look at the difference..... $120 to fill my Detroit with a Delo conventional that gives me the same performance as $199 of synthetic Delo or $304 of Amsoil? And for those worried about zinc in their oil, Delo conventional has a higher level of ZDDP than all the other major brands. And Chevron has extensive testing on taking their conventional 400 LE 15w40 up to 70,000 miles in real world testing (long haul trucks) before the oils reached their limits. But don't think I am a shill for Chevron, I have found the Mystik JT-8 oils commonly found at farm and home stores are also very good products. They are very cost effective.

The synthetic boys are master marketers of their products. But then, the general public always seems to take an interest in things like this. There is a never ending laundry list of oil additives and other snake oil that oils do not need. Synthetics are NOT snake oil, but they are sure hyped up to be the salvation of the free world. They have their place, and are excellent in specialized applications and nasty cold temps, or if the OEM has stated that they should be used. But most folks are not going to see any major advantage to using them. It just gives them warm fuzzies that they are using the best, and they are happy separating themselves from more of their money. If only a few quarts, who cares? But when you are using tens of gallons of the stuff several times a year, then you had better find out if it is worth it. I don't.

Check out dNewton's posts at the BITOG site and he pretty much agrees with most of what I have stated. And he is a tribologist, a professional oil specialist. I listen to much of what he says there, have hundreds of thousands of real world miles of testing and oil samples, that tend to agree with what he states there. And he has posted multiple times that most folks have no need for synthetic engine oils, except in extreme cases. Take that for what it is worth.

 

[3930dave]

More good data Copperhead, thanks.

dNewton is one person I follow a bit on BITOG, for the reasons you list. One thing I want to learn more about is coking issues on turbos - Conventional vs. Syth, it's on the reading list..... :thumbsup: I'm the only one driving my 7.3 at the moment, so I can control shut down times, but I do wonder how conventional performs on turbo bearings during (ultra) hot shutdown.

There's one guy up in Alaska I think, that is into Unimogs - often good data from him, and another guy in Oz that runs commercial trucks also posts good stuff. My lousy memory doesn't have their user names at hand....

Distribution of Delo is very limited in Canada, compared to the rest of the majors. Seems easier to find on our Left Coast, a buddy in BC uses it fairly often. It's rare enough around here (1 hour north of Toronto) that I'm not sure that I've ever seen the Delo synth on a shelf.

Schaeffer (sp ?) is another one that seems more prevalent out West, wish it was easier to find in the East here.

I'm not an Amsoil fanboy (or anybody else's for that matter), so I always like to see the data, especially from repeated testing. Yeah, basic science geek, that's me .

If you've never lived anywhere else other than most parts of the USA, it is hard to appreciate how extensive your consumer choices are. Most places in Canada don't have anywhere near the choices that a lot of the USA has. Even if it is not local to you in the USA, Free Shipping that is often the rule (exception up here) makes it pretty easy/cost effective to get exactly what you want. Well, at least easier than most parts of the world anyway....

Off the shelf, if you are in the habit of cruising the oil aisles up here, you can usually get pretty good deals on syth - enough so that any slight cost hit is minimal, even to a broke guy like me.

We don't get as many -40 days even here as we used to, but that is one area I definitely appreciate good Synthetics for. As noted above, there are a few more things I want to learn about the High Temp delta, if any.

Rgds, D.

 

[aczlan]

dNewton is one person I follow a bit on BITOG, for the reasons you list. One thing I want to learn more about is coking issues on turbos - Conventional vs. Syth, it's on the reading list..... :thumbsup: I'm the only one driving my 7.3 at the moment, so I can control shut down times, but I do wonder how conventional performs on turbo bearings during (ultra) hot shutdown.

My experience with Volvos is that a turbo will coke dino oil over time whereas synthetic holds up better. On my (non-turbo) straight 6 Volvo, there was a clatter there on startup with dino that goes away when putting in the same weight synthetic.

Aaron Z

 

[kenmac]

I like to see what the virgin TBN levels are on DELO dino. I would doubt 12 as Amsoil does.The thing about Amsoil is, They have nothing to hide. I have had no problem with them telling me that they have xxx in their oil. That's more than I can say about Mobil.Amsoil has worked for me (Diesel or gas) better than any dino oil I have ever used. Delo ,Rotella,Valovine, etc

 

[3930dave]

My experience with Volvos is that a turbo will coke dino oil over time whereas synthetic holds up better. On my (non-turbo) straight 6 Volvo, there was a clatter there on startup with dino that goes away when putting in the same weight synthetic.

Aaron Z

I put a Scan Gauge II into my truck before I started pulling any significant weight with it - one of the things I wanted to monitor was Engine Oil Temperature, as well as the obvious one - Trans. Oil Temp. I'm not familiar with the specific SAE tests, but obviously a heavily loaded turbo engine is going to put some serious thermal loads into the oil. Synth or not, I wanted to see exactly what the EOT was running at.

Heavy stuff, like CuHead's Detroit, will get idled a lot - I expect hot shutdown in the heavy world to be less of an issue than with the average driver of a light vehicle. With early gas turbos, the oils weren't that great, so I remember the after-market turbo timers coming along - I suspect they are still out there - good solution for long turbo life, esp. if you have multiple drivers in one vehicle.

Rgds, D.