Switch back to dino oil from synthetic?

[sixdogs]

I have used synthetic motor oil for many years and am growing concerned that the pending versions due in 2017 will reduce engine protection enough that I might be better off switching back to a non-synthetic "dino" oil. Most of the newest oil categories, close as I can figure, only reduce the levels of the ZDDP that is necessary to protect various part of the valve train. The change is because of newer DPF tractors and by that virtue will force all older tractor models into the new oil use mode that I don't want to be in.

Now, I know oils are supposedly back engineered but I'm not sure I believe that ZDDP amounts can be further reduced without eventually causing some engine harm, especially in older engines. If I switch back to dino oils, I can get versions that have not reduced the ZDDP levels and are more than adequate for my engines.

My equipment is used mostly in the summer, gets short interval oil changes and is post 2003 up to 2014. No DPF or DEF stuff. So I really don't need synthetic; my only purpose was for reduction of startup wear.


What do others think? Switch or fight?

 

[Copperhead]

Well, conventional or synthetic, what makes an oil meet a classification is the additive package. ZDDP has nothing to do with the base oil. You essentially are wanting to use an oil that has a stout additive package from your description of your concerns. The newer classifications of oils will affect both synthetic and conventional oils.

There are many other additives that are used that deliver protection that traditional zinc/phosphorus combination has. Molybdenum, Titanium, etc in combination with boron is a good example. ZDDP can by highly overrated by some. Actually, some of the better oils (conventional or synthetic) will use broad add pack that includes a complimentary balance of ZDDP, Calcium, Boron, Moly or Titanium, boron, etc. Zinc/Phosphorus is not the only extreme pressure protection additive that can be used in motor oil. There reasoning behind reduction ZDDP has a lot to do with downstream emissions component life, but while ZDDP may be reduced, a good oil will supplement with other additives that do not have a negative effect on emissions stuff and complement the reduced ZDDP to provide ample protection.

If a oil classification meets, say CJ-4, it doesn't matter if it is synthetic or conventional, it will have an add pack that is designed for CJ-4. When CK-4 comes out December 1st, it will not make a difference if it is synthetic or conventional, the add pack will meet CK-4. The thing is, CK-4 is going to be designed for decreased wear and increased protection from oxidation, among other things. That will mean that higher levels of moly or titanium will be used in them, along with higher levels of calcium for acid control and detergency.

There will still be CJ-4 and other past classifications around for a while. There are a lot of legacy engines around that the owners will still want to use formulas that do not meet the new classification. I think you are getting the cart before the horse on this one. I wouldn't give it any worry time.

 

[sixdogs]

Copperhead---Many thanks for your very informative reply.

So when the new labelled CK-4 oils start showing up, they are OK to use in 20 year old Kubota diesels?

Second, if I found a dino oil labelled as CJ-4 and I would switch to that over the synthetic I have been using, would you expect any material operational difference since I use equipment in warm weather and have short oil change intervals? I use synthetic partly because I feel I get better start-up protection, especially if the equipment has been sitting for a month or so. Does synthetic protect this way? Do you use dino or synthetic ?

Any info appreciated.

 

[The Fred]

PC-11A (Licenses as API CK-4)

Viscosity grades include both SAExW-40 and xW -30 engine oils with >3.5 cP HT/HS viscosity
Higher level of wear and oxidation protection versus API CJ-4 oils
Improved shear stability


Q. What is the difference between CK-4 and FA-4 oils? - GotQuestions? PC-11, The New Engine Oils - TruckingInfo.com


Regards, Fred

 

[Copperhead]

Copperhead---Many thanks for your very informative reply.

So when the new labelled CK-4 oils start showing up, they are OK to use in 20 year old Kubota diesels?

Second, if I found a dino oil labelled as CJ-4 and I would switch to that over the synthetic I have been using, would you expect any material operational difference since I use equipment in warm weather and have short oil change intervals? I use synthetic partly because I feel I get better start-up protection, especially if the equipment has been sitting for a month or so. Does synthetic protect this way? Do you use dino or synthetic ?

Any info appreciated.

I am not worried on my 17 year old Detroit engine using CK-4. I have grown partial to synthetic blend oil I get from my supplier. They are usually in the price range of many conventionals and offer the best of both worlds. Conventional oils have come a long, long way this century. I would not have any problem using them in your situation. Synthetics tend to be more cost effective for extremes... like severe cold temperature start up flow and extreme component heat situations. A quality conventional will protect an engine that is sitting as much as any synthetic. You can find any of the major name brands with good synthetic blends. I don't use it, but I have seen many used oil samples on the Mobil Delvac syn blend and it is one stout oil. But just get a brand that is cost effective and helps you sleep well at night. There are a lot of very good oils out there and the new CK-4 will do just fine in the older stuff. It has been tested and tested and tested for quite a while now. I first heard about them developing this class at least two years ago. The oil folks are not going to shove something inferior down our throats. If they did, it would be a death sentence to their business. Commercial users are the primary users of diesel rated oils, and you diss that segment and you can kiss you business goodbye.

 

[sixdogs]

Good advice, Copperhead. Thank you.

I'm beginning the mental process on a switch from full synthetic to a quality semi-syn or even quality dino oil.

 

[Copperhead]

Yeah, I don't fall for the synthetic vs dino arguments anymore. Base oils have really come full swing into the 21st century. My only focus on my oil selections have to do with the additive package that makes up 20% of any motor oil you buy. And there are some quality dino and blends on the market. Kendall, Mystik, Mobil, Delo, etc. Even many of the farm and home store brands are killer. I saw the testing done on Rural King conventional oil by the Petroleum Quality Institute of America, and it is on par with most any national name brand oil you can find on the shelf. Even Love's Truck Stop label is on par with Mobil 1300 super.

Find a brand you feel comfortable with, at the best price you can, and live long and prosper!

 

[DieselBound]

When I have questions about lubricants and fluids I run over to BobIsTheOilGuy.com. Here's an interesting thread that brings up some current thoughts regarding ZDDP:
A New Theory of ZDDP FIlm Formation | Technical and White Papers | Bob Is The Oil Guy

Sounds like there may be some pretty significant re-thinking going on.

Best gauge of how effective a lubricant is performing is to have a lab analysis done (fairly cheap). If the operator doesn't notice any issues and the lab reports look good then I wouldn't think that there should be room for much concern.

 

[Copperhead]

Yeah, too much emphasis has been put on ZDDP over the years. Was an issue back in the day with some engines. But additive package formulations have really been modernized by Infineum and Lubrizol, among others. I like to look for balances of various compounds in an add pack, since they tend to compliment each other with better results than one or two acting alone.

 

[dodge man]

I know Amsoil offers some oils that have high ZDDP levels, but I think they are geared more for gas engines. You can check to see what they offer though.