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  1. #1

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
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    1,390
    Location
    South Central Oklahoma
    Tractor
    Kubota Grand L4610HSTC

    Default Backhoe and safe operation of same

    I know I want one, probably need one but kubota won't supply one for the L4610 with cab. I have talked to Bradco and they claim to have never put one on an L4610 with cab but would love to sell me the undertractor frame, a frame extension, and a backhoe so I can be a lab rat for them. I'm thinking of building a kit or from plans and have a choice of standalone vs 3PH mounted. 3PH has advantage of using tractor hydraulic pump. Standalone has to have a pump and engine (yet another engine...) but certainly won't strain the tractor as its only involvement would be towing the hoe and using its FEL to move dirt 'n' stuff the hoe digs up. Advantage for standalone is you don't have it on the 3PH when you wish you had something else available.
    The Kubota dealer says that after market BH have been known to stress the tractor and break them in half and a brand X BH will void my waranty. Anybody "been there, done that"? I could use some advice/discussion.

    Patrick

  2. #2
    Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    856
    Location
    South West Pa/Greene county
    Tractor
    Long/Landtrac360DTC

    Default Re: Backhoe and safe operation of same

    If you plan on building one, I would go with the stand alone. That way you don't have to worry about putting stress on your tractor. If you decide you want to mount it on your tractor, definitly go with the subframe mount. I feel that with the 3ph backhoes, you stand a good chance of tweaking/breaking something on your tractor if you get too agressive with the hoe. Just my $0.02 worth.

    Ed King

  3. #3
    Veteran Member hayden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Posts
    1,709
    Location
    MA/VT
    Tractor
    Kubota L5740 cab + FEL, Cat D5G dozer, Kubota KX121 excavtor

    Default Re: Backhoe and safe operation of same

    I've seen a Woods 9000 on an L4610 HSTC up close and personal. I even put the seat down and climbed on to confirm it actually worked (I think I mentioned this in another note). The 9000 was frame mounted, not 3PH mounted. At least the Woods 6500 and 7500 can be rigged for either 3PH or frame mount. I'm not sure if the 9000 can be 3PH mounted.

    The 9000 is a good hoe. All indications are that the Bradcos are better, but the woods in nothing the laugh at by any means. This is one route that clearly works. The dealer that rigged it was Chappell tractor in Milford NH so you could call them to get their experience on it.

    As for the Bradco, I asked them about the extensions for a Cab tractor and they said if you use the extensions you need to drop down one or two BH sizes to compensate for the mass of the BH hanging further off the stern. From what I've seen the Woods 9000 on a frame hangs significantly further back that a Bradco even with 4" extensions, so I'm not sure how much science is behind Bradco's statement, but it's the best I have to go on at this point.

    If you use a 3PH BH, I think you'll have the exact same window/seat problem as other hoes. The woods seems to work precisely because it hangs so far back.

    Can you see if Bradco will cover the rigging labor for a local dealer if the experiment fails? That's what I would try. Be the test site as long as it doesn't cost cash.

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    470
    Location
    Lyndeborough, NH
    Tractor
    Kubota L5030HSTC, Farmall SuperC

    Default Re: Backhoe and safe operation of same

    I run the Woods 9000 with a PTO pump on an L3710. Works great, no worries, and I don't have to run at rated power to get a lot done. I believe you can readily get the PTO pump so you don't HAVE to get another engine. As for a hoe breaking a tractor - shouldnt' be a problem if you have a whole wit of sense. Course there are rumoured to be some half-wits out there...[img]/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif[/img]

    [Chappell Tractor sold me the tractor and the hoe - and they stand behind it] If you really need it I can take some measurements this weekend on the clearances.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    1,390
    Location
    South Central Oklahoma
    Tractor
    Kubota Grand L4610HSTC

    Default Re: Backhoe and safe operation of same

    Ed,
    I haven't heard back from Woods yet but the Bradco 509, as per Bob Shulte at Bradco, with mount, 4" extension, hoses, and couplers less tax, shipping, and installation is nearly $10K. I shouldn't think the Woods would be way less. I can build a kit with comparable specs for $3600 as a standalone (10-11HP engine) or $2200 as a 3PH mount version, both with the same healthy specs. The standalone does look attractive for not stressing the Kubby or its waranty. It has wheels and a hitch for towing, it is its own trailer. It crawls around on its claw and two wheels like a crab to manuever on a site in tighter spaces than even with my litle tractor. http://www.cadplans.com/821.htm

    Given that I don't make my living with a backhoe and can fix it myself, the kit looks attractive.

    Hayden,
    I did/do appreciate your report, both times. After the first report I visited my kubota dealer and got the waranty scare and the "tractor breaks in half" stories. Now, as a result of your persistence, I have unanswered email in to Woods (web page sucks and is amazingly uninformative) and have the name and address of the nearest dealer which I will visit next Monday. If they don't have a pretty powerful presentation I think I will probably not be a buyer.


    Andy,
    I am not familiar with your tractor but I would guess that anything it will do the L4610 could do except maybe squeeze through the same tight spaces or run as long on a gal of diesel. Does the Woods come with some reinforcements, subframe, or anything to distribute the stress and beef up the Kubby? I'm not crazy but I'm not always real easy on equipment. I have been on two wheels way too many times for my own comfort. Most recently nose down with FEL bucket full of mud and copious suction on the bucket from the mud under it. Not enough breakout force to make visible progress raising the bucket but the curl raised both back wheels right up in the air. I hit the joystick and dropped the wheels then did it again before finally the bucket began to slowly break out UNEVENLY which forced me to lower the bucket to keep the tractor from "banking" too far. Maybe if I had been twins, I could have been a whole wit! With a stand alone I could park the Kubby far enough away so that my gyrations on the BH couldn't hurt the tractor.


    Patrick

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    470
    Location
    Lyndeborough, NH
    Tractor
    Kubota L5030HSTC, Farmall SuperC

    Default Re: Backhoe and safe operation of same

    The Woods does come with a sub-frame mount - and I wouldn't have it any other way. Now that you have me thinking about stand-alone, I suppose you could adapt the sub-frame mount to just about anything if you have the clearance. The back of the subframe is a receiver that takes about 2" bar, and the front (I would guess about 4 feet in) takes about a 6" tip of the A-frame. Now if you had an old truck with good clearance (or a real low flatbed) you could probably rig it up just fine. I guess I would want a significant mass on the front as I really hate diving into holes that I'm workin on.[img]/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif[/img] I wonder what you would need for an engine to run the pump?

    Oh yeah - here is the text of what I got back from Woods when I was looking:
    <font color=blue>
    Yes it will be a little slower. It would not be a big issue to add the pump
    kit at a later time if you think the hoe is too slow going direct into
    tractor hydraulics. I would just make the deal with a dealer with the option
    to add the pump kit.

    Thank you,

    Kevin Smith

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Andrew Roeper [mailto:andy@cwrmarketing.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 8:52 AM
    To: Smith Kevin
    Subject: RE: Compatibility of 9000 back hoe and a kubota L3710


    Thanks. I wouldn't consider a backhoe without a sub frame.

    Am I correct in observing that the motion will be a tad slower for the 7.8
    gpm rated internal hydraulics then the pto pump? I don't see that as too
    much of an issue, but want to seriously consider the pump if it would make
    a big difference in overall productivity.
    Andy

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Smith Kevin [mailto:KevinS@woodsonline.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 9:27 AM
    To: 'andy@cwrmarketing.com'
    Cc: Putnam Doreen
    Subject: RE: Compatibility of 9000 back hoe and a Kubota L3710


    This will work on the tractor you have specified with a subframe 1001199.
    This must be attached using a subframe. Do not 3 pt mount. It will work from
    the tractor hydraulics, it requires 9 - 12 GPM @ 2400 psi.

    Thank you,

    Kevin Smith

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Putnam Doreen
    Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 6:20 AM
    To: Smith Kevin
    Subject: FW: Compatabilit of 9000 back hoe and a Kubota L3710




    -----Original Message-----
    From: andy@cwrmarketing.com [mailto:andy@cwrmarketing.com]
    Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 8:41 PM
    To: Doreenp@woodsonline.com
    Subject: Compatabilit of 9000 back hoe and a Kubota L3710


    (nickname) Construction
    (message) I am considering a model 9000 backhoe for my new L3710. I would
    prefer to use the internal hydraulics vs. the pto pump but don't see flow
    specs on your website. Plnning on giong with the 18" bucket.
    Info./suggestions/comments?
    </font color=blue>

    Good Luck!




  7. #7
    Super Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
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    5,666
    Location
    Cedartown, Ga and N. Ga mountains
    Tractor
    1998 Kubota B21, 2005 Kubota L39

    Default Re: Backhoe and safe operation of same

    Patrick,

    I’m having a hard time visualizing how a stand-alone backhoe would be stable enough to do any heavy work. My B21 kubota is pretty small, as far as backhoe’s go and often the tractor is moved around by the backhoe. If I am working the hoe close to its limits, such as stump removal, it is common for the hoe to drag the tractor towards the stump. Digging to one side can force a stabilizer off the ground and create a less than soft landing. Over time, I have become a better operator and know how to avoid much of this, as I am sure you would. My point is that these things happen to me with the backhoe attached to 3800 pounds of metal plus another 400 pounds of weighted tires and a loader with tooth bar planted in the ground.

    I have never used a stand-alone backhoe so my comments are nothing more than food for thought. Our local Gas Company uses stand-alone units from a company named “Dig-it”. You might want to try to find some information on these.

    MarkV

  8. #8
    Veteran Member hayden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
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    1,709
    Location
    MA/VT
    Tractor
    Kubota L5740 cab + FEL, Cat D5G dozer, Kubota KX121 excavtor

    Default Re: Backhoe and safe operation of same

    I agree. A big part of a good backhoe is having it attached to something heavy enough to stay put when digging. It's that old equal and opposite rule. I'd suggest looking at the overall weight of the stand alone hoe and it's digging power, then compare that to different tractors with comparable powered hoes. For some data points, my 2910 + 4690 (7.5 foot hoe) weighs in at a combined weight of about 4000 lbs. A large Grand L with an 8 to 11 foot hoe will weigh in around 6500 lbs. If the weight of the stand alone is off compared to it's digging power, I'd stay away.

  9. #9
    Epic Contributor MossRoad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    23,481
    Location
    South Bend, Indiana (near)
    Tractor
    Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year

    Default Re: Backhoe and safe operation of same

    Have you considered building the CADDIGGER stand alone unit, but not buying the motor and using the hydraulics off of the tractor? If the hydraulics end up being too weak, you could then either buy a PTO hydraulic pump, or a seperate motor for the stand alone unit. The neat thing about the stand alone units with their own power is that you can tow it behind you car with a standard trailer hitch at highway speeds.

  10. #10
    Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    586
    Location
    Connecticut
    Tractor
    BX2360/ Kubota SVL90-2/ Kobelco 115SR/ Kubota 161-3

    Default Re: Backhoe and safe operation of same

    I personally think that you can't beat a tractor mounted hoe,like the previous post holding a "stand alone" hoe in one place while diggin' is going to get very frustrating over time. As far as sub-frame vs. 3pt, ALLWAYS go sub-frame....much less stress on the machine especially at times when you get a bit rammy with it.You could probably set it up w/Bradco,if it doesn't work you could send it back for a full refund (being that you r doing their r&amp;d work) if it does work ,great,you'll be all set to dig.

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