organic farmers?

[N80]

Absoluteley ...I'm not against it at all but until consumers change buying habits and are willing to pay for organic food it will not work , But even then it will be the stores or processors taking the profit , Farm prices don't increase when store prices do , And some-times the opposite happens?

That's my outlook on this as well. I see it as a fad. Which is not to say you can't get rich on a fad, but you have to be right there to ride that wave. And then its gone.

The problem, as I see it, is that very few of the "inorganic" techniques have been proven to be any sort of real health risk. With that being the case, the "organic" fad has to be sustained by people's belief that they are getting something truly risk free and avoiding something truly dangerous. People will believe a lot of things, the supplement industry is plenty of proof of that. But the 'organic' fad is going to depend on keeping people scared and willing to pay extra to feel like they are making a healthy choice. If that good feeling is not worth the extra money, being 'organic' loses its shine.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against organic. I'm even talking with my B-I-L about potential benefits of organic beef farming, but that has more to do with getting out from under the thumb of an oppressive beef market than any notions about what is healthy and what is not. But the truth of the matter is that the 'organic' market depends more on a feeling than any evidence that it is somehow better for you.

And you can also rely on the fact that even if it does take off in a sustainable way, when people hear that you can put something called 'rotenone' on your organic crops, someone is going to capitalize on that fear factor and introduce 'natural organic' crops as opposed to plain old 'organic'...with no rotenone, or any other 'approved' chemicals or poisons...especially if any of those have scary sounding names? I mean how long before someone decides that deisel smoke residue on crops makes them 'inorganic' (even though diesel smoke is technically an organic compound)? Or even residue from the rubber tires or the synthetic soles of your boots?

And don't forget this folks. People are living longer and healthier than people did when everything was 'organic'. Sure it is multifactorial, but there is nothing to indicate that anything in the current farming practices is shortening our lives or endangering our health. (I'm not saying that will always be true, genetic engineering does concern me some). But seriously, buy and eat all the organic food you can, I'm all for it and my wife likes to buy it, but if on any given day you eat one twinky, drink one Doctor Pepper, eat one Big Mac or delivery pizza, you're increasing your risk for diet related medical problems, primarily in the form of coronary artery disease and cererbrovascular disease, in such a way that far exceeds any benefit that you got from eating an organic vs an inorganic tomato at lunch that same day.

But, you can't expect Americans to analyze risk in a rational way. Tobacco is still profitable. And besides, we're still buying Hoola-Hoops. As long as you can keep the feeling alive, 'organic' may be sustainable.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

To be successful, any business needs a market for its product. Organic crops are slowly establishing their niche. I know of 2 farmers growing organic soybeans. Both are growing over 200 acres this year. Their "per acre" profits are quite a bit higher than typical conventional soybeans in this area. That doesn't mean organic beans are more profitable "across the board". All it means is these two found an avenue to market their crop, and they learned how to produce yields that made their venture far more profitable than conventional beans. It can be done in certain situations by certain people. It's NOT the answer for every farmer. Growing organic crops successfully requires someone who can think WAY outside the box.

Ask either one of these two what their thoughts are on the NEED for organic soybeans and you'll get a smile followed by silence. They don't promote the need, but they do recognize the potential for personal profit. Neither are trying to champion a cause, just trying to feed a family.

 

[RichNJKubota]

Over the years one of my "jobs" was as a medical researcher. I spent many hours at medical libraries in med schools and hospitals and (more recently)many hours on the internet researching health issues. Reading thousands of peer reviewed studies in medical journals. None of this was directly related to the FDA or pesticides. But I do remember a few things that I read about pesticides.

The FDA literature in reference to pesticides is rife with terms such as "acceptable risk", "safety risk", and "managing risk" - just to name a few.
In 1960 legislation was passed called the Delaney Clause. It prohibited the approval of any product that caused cancer. No matter how small the risk was. A few years ago the Delaney clause was removed from law.
Bottom line: Pesticides are known to cause cancer and the FDA knows it. It knows that a small percentage of people will get cancer from pesticides. I think this "acceptable risk" is set at 1 person in a million. But how do they know this? Through animal studies. But what if they are wrong and what if politics come into play with your food and therefore your life? And what if you are the one in a million? Or what if it's really more than one in a million?
I leave the rest of the research up to the reader.

As far as organic foods go you can choose to eat what you want. But I choose organic whenever possible.

I'm a member of a local organic farm. Otherwise known as "Community Supported Agriculture (CSA)". The food that this farm produces is of excellent quality and abundant supply. After eating such great fruit and veggies, I can't even stand to look at the produce aisle in the local A&P. The taste of the fruits and veggies from the farm and our garden is beyond words.
As I write this I'm making tomato sauce and sun dried tomatoes grown in our organic garden.

The CSA farm and our garden produce most of the food we eat during the summer and as much as possible is stored for use in the fall and winter. It has changed our lives. We eat (thanks to my wife's cooking talents) gourmet foods that you can't buy at any restaurant.
One of my kids favorite foods are spinach and kale. Because they taste so good and are prepared in such wonderful recipes.

So, for us it's no fad, it's part of our lifestyle and quality of life.

 

[N80]

Ask either one of these two what their thoughts are on the NEED for organic soybeans and you'll get a smile followed by silence. They don't promote the need, but they do recognize the potential for personal profit. Neither are trying to champion a cause, just trying to feed a family.

That's how my B-I-L feels about organic beef. When he and I talk about his operation, it would not be hard to become 'organic'. He'd lose more cows to infection if he couldn't use antibiotics when needed. He does not use them in a wholesale way anyhow. He'd have to stop using growth hormone (Ral-Gro?) so cows would be smaller. He'd have to develop some sort of feedlot to fatten them up. I'm not sure what the 'organic' regs would say about using turkey manure to fertilize the hay.

To begin with, he might just segregate a portion of his calves as organic and just sell to individuals who want to buy a whole 'organic' mostly grass-fed cow. This could pad his income without going full scale or being certified organic.

The problem for the beef guys is getting the cows processed. Small operations like people buying a few cows from him at a time are not that big a deal. Apparently you can get local butchers to slaughter and process them as long as it is below a certain (small) volume. Once you get above that you get major FDA regulations which most small time butchers can't afford. I think to be 'organic' there are certain processing standards as well.

What needs to happen around here is for someone to set up a good sized 'organic' slaughter house to support the regional beef farmers. Maybe even a co-op type thing. I think this would be great and would cut the middlemen out of the local beef market. They are the ones that take the money home. The calf producers, like any base level farmers, typically get the short end of the stick.

The problem with local, mixed feed, 'organic' beef is that it simply does not taste as good as serious steroid laden, stall kept, corn fed beef. It is not as tender and is a little gamey. I have read, however, that as the organic fad rolls on, people are aquiring a taste for this type of beef and that a market is developing and good restaurants are featuring it. If you can get people to pay more for tougher beef, well, that's just good marketing! The ironic thing is that if this organic beef is leaner (less marbling) then it may be the one organic product that will have easy to prove health benefits.

 

[N80]

Pesticides are known to cause cancer and the FDA knows it.

Well, that's a broad stroke. Saying 'pesticides' cause cancer is like saying 'stuff' causes cancer. That's too general. But you are right, it is a risk vs benefit question. Too many Americans are unable to rationally process what that means and too pampered to understand that everything we do and everything we do it with comes with risk. Besides, find something, anything really, that the state of California says can't cause cancer!

It knows that a small percentage of people will get cancer from pesticides.

We also know that 50,000 people a year will die in car accidents. A still small per capita risk but much higher than any risk from pesticides. Yet we accept the risk of automotive death without a thought

But what if they are wrong and what if politics come into play with your food and therefore your life? And what if you are the one in a million? Or what if it's really more than one in a million?

You have to keep it in perspective. Do any of you understand what the risk of one in a million is? How about 10 in a million? How does that compare with the risk of smoking one cigarette, eating one Big Mac a month? Heart disease kills 500,000 a year.

After eating such great fruit and veggies, I can't even stand to look at the produce aisle in the local A&P. The taste of the fruits and veggies from the farm and our garden is beyond words.

I can't say that any organic product has ever tasted any better than any fresh locally grown 'inorganic' vegetable I can get around here. But as for the grocery store, you're exactly right. We buy very little vegetables from the grocery.

The CSA farm and our garden produce most of the food we eat during the summer and as much as possible is stored for use in the fall and winter.

I think local community farms and/or co-ops are a great idea. But when it comes to tatse, quality or health, I don' care whether they are certified organic, sort of organic or grown just like everybody else. And if the local 'Bush and Vine' stand has his same inorganic fresh sweet corn on the table, which I know to be out of this world, I'd be unlikely to pay a penny more for the same thing grown organically. And for whatever its worth, that's the way most of the population around here (that still values good, fresh produce) feel about 'organic'. Granted, York County South Carolina is no Seattle, San Fran or even Phoenix. We're still happily backwards.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

This is the third time I have written this post. I don't really want to offend anyone, but I am biased because I feel like anything I have done has been unfairly villified by the organic and associated movements. I grew up in a tradititional farming community where the farms grew good, safe, wholesome food by using synthetic amendments and modern means. I was involved in developing transgenic technologies for genetic engineering as an undergraduate, I was an intern at a nuclear waste processing research facility, and I am employed as a food scientist at a processing plant. I've seen a lot of organic produce, some good, some bad.

I truly and deeply respect those of you who are genuinely passionate about growing organic crops. We need people like you out there to take the risks, learn things, and educate the rest of us. I speak to those who see it as I do...a way to preserve the wisdom and ways of generations past and not forget these things to modern technology. It does not and cannot, however, replace modern technology.

The people who benefit from organics the most and appreciate it the most are those like RichNJKubota who are actually involved from farm to fork. I do suspect, though, that the superior quality of his CSA produce less a result of organic methods and more a result of personal dedication on the part of the participants.

Most of what I have to say has already been said or will be said soon enough; organic stuff is not really risk free, the world would starve if we converted everything over to organic production, the public is generally unable to rationally process complex statistical phenomenon, the organic movement is as full of propaganda and misinformation as any other industry, and organic producers do not value you and your family more than your money any more than a modern producer values you more than your money.

I believe that organic production is a essential part of the whole picture, but it is not in and of itself the whole picture.

I think it's more than a fad; and I think that if you really believe in it, you have a future there. If all you're trying to do is make an extra buck, join the club and then struggle with the rest of the club.

 

[candersen10]

All you need to grow organically is the right equipment and a little patience. I live on a 150 acre farm and we have 40 acres which are devoted to organic vegetable productionCharlestown Farm Center. The other 110 acres are being set up for organic beef and eventually dairy. The key to farming organically successfully seems to be having the right equipment and enough manpower. For example, this year I purchased a Ford 1710 HC offset cultivating tractor. With this machine I have been able to cultivate my sweet corn to the point that it looks almost identical to conventional corn. It is certainly true that organic farming becomes almost stupid on a large scale (read Michael Pollen's Omnivores Dilemma) because huge amounts of diesel is used to plow, disc, and cultivate fields repeatedly in order to suppress weeds, however, on a family farm size scale, at least in my experience, organic farming has proven to be very practical and manageable. As for the argument that non-organic is the way forward, I certainly agree in certain situations. The use of Integrated Pest Management (IPM) involves very careful usage of pesticides in order to suppress the pests yet not the predators, this is an example of a non-organic practice that absolutely makes sense. However, some farming I've seen, where farmers are spraying repeatedly and somewhat blindly, cannot be the way forward simply because it makes no sense.

 

[D7E]

All you need to grow organically is the right equipment and a little patience. However, some farming I've seen, where farmers are spraying repeatedly and somewhat blindly, cannot be the way forward simply because it makes no sense.

Spraying blindly .... Did you think about this statement .
We spend over $150'000 a year on chemicals , Do you think this is done without any thought of wether it is neccessary or cost or our own health risk ? You have obviously never seen what grasshoppers can do to sunflowers in 12 hours , In a 80 acre field they can take 5 acres per day so we spray repeatedly until their cycle is over . Pesticide is the expensive one that we avoid if possible as opposed to weed spray particularily glyphosates which can be applied for $2.50 per acre but bug spray can be up to $30 per acre and at advanced crop stages you cant use a normal sprayer and have to include the cost of ariel application , Spread this over 2000 acres . Nobody sprays..."NEEDLESSLY" you cant afford to ?

When the day comes that the crop is worth enough to over-look a 30% loss from insect damage or weeds then we would not spray so much but today less than 100% yeild is not profitable .

We're getting slightly off the topic here the thought was "4" acres and on this scale "fine" but larger scale is different there are many more things to take into consideration .

 

[candersen10]

Pesticide is the expensive one that we avoid if possible as opposed to weed spray particularily glyphosates which can be applied for $2.50 per acre but bug spray can be up to $30 per acre and at advanced crop stages you cant use a normal sprayer and have to include the cost of ariel application , Spread this over 2000 acres . Nobody sprays..."NEEDLESSLY" you cant afford to ?

You obviously aren't spraying blindly then. I've seen local farmers spray pesticides over their sweetcorn 5 times a week to combat the European Corn Borer, this to me seems excessive, especially when you can get Parasitic wasps which do virtually the same job.

 

[Oleozz]

I sold a pile of sweet corn this summer along the road and not one person mentioned organic to me. It was not grown organically but I only sprayed once with a pre-emergence spray for weeds. The two patches had almost no worms in it but I was hit hard with the Japanese bettle. My final patch does have some worm damage but it was a different variety.
I just don't think most people in this area are concerned about organic yet, you can find it in the supermarkets but at a higher price.