knotting problems with JD 14T baler

[dan_d]

Hi all,
First off, just like to say that I'm glad i found this site, tons of usefull info!

Anyways, I seem to have gotten myself into a much bigger project than I anticipated... When we moved into our house 4 years ago, there was a baler out in the field under a (very shredded) tarp, which I finally got the urge to pull out earlier this year. I've been tinkering with it and have managed to get one of the knotters working perfect every time, but the other one simply won't tie a knot. I've watched it and played around with a few things (replaced worn billhook, adjusted tucker finger) but everytime the billhook goes around, the "front" piece of twine gets missed. See http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6656.JPG I've also noticed something else rather peculiar with the intermittent gears which is also seen in that picture (and http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6654.JPG) where the offending billhook actually starts turning a little bit before the other! I find this rather odd since both intermittent gears are keyed so it's not like they could really be out of alignment (unless someone replaced one of them at some point and it wasn't exactly identical?) but that's the only thing i could see that could make one billhook do its little dance before the other! Am I missing a piece of the puzzle?

You can see the difference between the two billhooks in the following pics:
http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6646.JPG and http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6648.JPG

and a tiny bit later on the same knotting cycle...

http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6649.JPG and http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6650.JPG

I think the twine angle is the real culprit right now, since the twine is in its final position well before either billhook starts to turn... I thought I adjusted the tucker finger accodring to the manual, but maybe not? (the pic in the PDF (pg 28) is really dark, can't see what the "twine guide" is?) SHoudl the finger catch the twine right at the very tip, or further into the middle? The angle on the working knotter is always steeper, even before the tucker fingers grab it, so maybe there's something else i need to adjust? I checked the twine tension (by pulling out of the needle tip) and got ~13lbs on both sides, which is within spec...

Any insight would be hugely appreciated!

Thanks,
Dan

 

[dan_d]

Oh, and just to set a frame of reference, until I pulled this beast out of hibernation , I had never touched a baler before in my life, nor had i done anything to my tractor but put diesel in it... I'm a city boy who got dragged out to the country by his wife and her horses! It's fun, but a heck of a lot of work!

DD

 

[born2ride]

DanD

Its hard for me to see the difference in the hooks. I can take a pick of mine for you later when i get home. Just let me know.

I dont know too much on these bales I only used this one once last year and twice this year.
i did find this info which help me..
From other member posts
"You should roll it over by hand. Empty out the twine and trip the knotter. The step where it wipes off the knot happens very quickly. You should be able to see the billhook open and the wiper arm slide across the hook. There's supposed to be considerable friction there, its not a gentle brushing. If its too weak, bend it to make the contact tighter."

"Look at the roller on the other end of the bill hook. If it has a flat spot or does not turn freely, the bill hook will not open all the way. By the way the most common problems with square balers comes back to the tucker fingers and timing"

 

[dan_d]

thanks for the tips!
now that you mention it, i remember seein that quote about the wiper arm before but forgot about it. my wiper arm does not contact the billhook, so i'll have to do some bending i think... although I'm rather surprised that the arm should actually rub the billhook... wouldn't that wear out the hook (or wiper arm) permaturely?
the billhook is brand new so i doubt it has a flat spot on the roller already!

 

[zzvyb6]

See if this helps in the interim. Make sure the billhook finger is open when the billhook starts to turn. It opens to accept the twine passed to it from the needles and tucker fingers.


http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/a...hlight=knotter

I put a video of a 14T knotter drive on You Tube. Search for it and see if it triggers any thoughts. I'll be dragging mine out of the shed any day now. Then I can get the sequences to include the billhook threading.

 

[zzvyb6]

I can clearly see that the billhooks are out of position when they terminate. (see attached photo) Question is why ? Looks like they are one tooth off relative to the intermittent gear start position.

1) Knotter drive shaft is bent (caused by a previous STB).

2) The keyway in the knotter drive is chipped / key is worn or broken, causing the phase delay. Can you grab the intermittent gears and rotate them by hand so they are back to being in a similar position relative to each other?

3) Is the knotter frame mounting bracket bent? A rear view of bothe knotters ought to show if ther is a frame mispositioned.

4) Is there a tooth broken off from the intermittent gear, thus starting the billhook rotation late?

5) Is the knotter drive stop detent mispositioned so that the intermittent gears are not returning to home postion properly? You can check this in #2 by rotating them back to Home position by hand.

6) is there a pin in the billhook to drive gear broken or missing? This suggests that the billhook position is out relative to the drive gear.
I'll see if I can get you some pix of mine later today....

 

[dan_d]

link doesn't work?

I saw your youtube vid, thanks! I'll keep an eye on the billhook to make sure it opens at the same time as the working one...

oh, and i updated the first pair of 'comparison' pics with captions to describe what i see as the cause of my problem.


i guess what i'm trying to figure out is what controls that front peice of twine that comes from the needle at knot time... on the good one it seems that the twine is much closer to the billhook right from the get-go... is there anything other than the last flake of hay & needle positioning that would affect that end of the knot?

Dan

 

[dan_d]

guess i was writing at the same time as you!


anyways, sorry I must not have explained the images well enough... the pair you copied show the billhooks just starting to knot. definitely the second one is starting first, but when they terminate, they are both in the correct position. the other pair of images shows the billhooks just bbefore they start to move. you're right that they are about 1-tooth off in the set you copied, but i didn't think to check if the key was chipped/broken! i know for sure the one that is not knotting is correctly keyed (oddly enough) , since i can see the cutout in the shaft and the gear line up, and this one also bolts into the trip dog. I couldn't easily see the key on the other one.... i had a miserable time getting that gear to move last time i wnated to get access to the outboard (working) knotter... took an aweful lot of heat to get it to budge at all! it definitely won't move by hand right now, but i'll try to verify the keyhole tonite

I don't believe the frame is bent, but i'll check.

not sure what the "knotter drive stop detent" is?

I'll double-check the billhook pin since I had to remove it to repalce the billhook, but i know i put it in there.. just whether it stayed or not is the question

Thanks for all the ideas!

Dan

I can clearly see that the billhooks are out of position when they terminate. (see attached photo) Question is why ? Looks like they are one tooth off relative to the intermittent gear start position.

1) Knotter drive shaft is bent (caused by a previous STB).

2) The keyway in the knotter drive is chipped / key is worn or broken, causing the phase delay. Can you grab the intermittent gears and rotate them by hand so they are back to being in a similar position relative to each other?

3) Is the knotter frame mounting bracket bent? A rear view of bothe knotters ought to show if ther is a frame mispositioned.

4) Is there a tooth broken off from the intermittent gear, thus starting the billhook rotation late?

5) Is the knotter drive stop detent mispositioned so that the intermittent gears are not returning to home postion properly? You can check this in #2 by rotating them back to Home position by hand.

6) is there a pin in the billhook to drive gear broken or missing? This suggests that the billhook position is out relative to the drive gear.
I'll see if I can get you some pix of mine later today....

 

[dan_d]

So the driveshaft & knotter frame don't seem to be bent... nor are there any missing teeth on the gears. Both keys are present and the gears don't spin on the shaft, so i guess there's only two options left: shaft is twisted but still straight (wouldn't i be able to see that?) or one intermittent gear was replaced by a newer/older one whose keyhole is slightly offset from the other?? Neither prosect is very appealing to me right now, since jdparts lists the intermittent gears at ~$360 and $500!!

I noticed that the inboard end of the hay flake was sticking out more than the outer (working side) one, so i tightened up the twine tension a bit and it seems to have helped... the one time I tripped the knotter it actually tied a knot, but then the twine got twisted around the billhook! marginally close i suppose, but no where near useable yet! eesh....

I am assuming that if I take the knotter shaft off, all the square key notches should line up, and if they do i guess i start looking for a dead 14T for "new" gears?? My (limited) understanding of the whole mechanism seems to have ruled out anything else that could cause the billhooks to be out of sync with eachother? Or maybe there's something else I could do to compensate somehow for this? (the problematic billhook is running 'ahead' of the working one...)

Thanks again!

DD

 

[zzvyb6]

There may still be another option that can get you going: The intermittent drive gear is positioned by the bracket that locates it relative to the bale case deck. Put some washers under it to advance it forward in time/rotation. Too much advance will cause some hardship for the billhook tongue to open in time, but what the heck. You can also slow the other gear down to match them. I still think a picture of a rear view of the knotter action during key motions is the answer.

Also, you can reset the timing of the "late" gear by removing the key altogether and putting in a set screw with pointed tip and a drilled crater in the shaft. The knotter won't know what happened. Or, drill a hold in the gear and shaft and stuff a pin into it. WTF ....