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  1. #1

    Join Date
    May 2002
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    12

    Default 4000/4310/4410 rear wheel bolts - please respond

    There is a thread in Repair on this but I'd like to get as much response as possible to this inquiry.

    In short, there is a problem with 4000/40ten series rear wheel bolts coming loose, and a mystery as to why and how best to solve it.

    I just took delivery of a 4410 with R4 tires. The wheel bolts were standard hex head M14 grade 8.8's with a flat washer under the head. Having read TBN first! I was prepared to replace my wheel bolts with longer ones and back them up with nyloc nuts on the back side of the flange.

    I was not prepared to find, on removing the first bolt, to find that the wheel holes are tapered to accept taper headed bolts.

    This is how loads are usually transferred fron wheel to axel: through the taper on the bolt head (or nut in cars) to the bolt or stud. The fact that the wheels were designed this way makes me think that using ordinary head bolts may be the problem. Not only is the load now being transferred only through the fit of the large center wheel hole over the center bulge in the mounting flange, but the friction that a tapered head bolt has with the tapered hole to keep it from loosening is lost; it fact the flat washer under the heads of the regular bolts makes the friction point way too low at rated torque, in my opinion.

    So now the point of this post: If you have had wheel bolt loosening problems with the 4000 / 4000 ten series tractors,
    PLEASE RESPOND wth what type wheel bolts you have, regular flat head or tapered head; and if you have the time to pull a bolt and look, at whether your wheel holes are tapered or not. Maybe we can get this figured out.


  2. #2
    Elite Member hazmat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
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    4,015
    Location
    West Newbury, MA & Harrison, ME
    Tractor
    Kubota B3030 loaded!

    Default Re: 4000/4310/4410 rear wheel bolts - please respond

    Geoff,

    Friction is friction, doesn't matter the shape. Friction force = some coefficient times the normal (clamping in this case) force. The coefficient is dependent on the materials, steel bolt, steel wheel. You'd be amazed at the clamping force generated by the 14mm bolts, thousands of pounds each!

    The reason that wheel lug nuts are tapered on cars is so that they center on the hub. An auto wheel rotates at a significantly higher speed than a tractor wheel. Balance is more of an issue than torque.

    I've read the thread in the repairs section. I tend to think that a warped hub and or wheel is to blame. If the interface isn't flat, when you load the wheel you would get some kind of oscillating force on the bolts, when it "relaxes" (less force) the bolt has an opportunity to back out.

    If anyone has had a few of the lug bolts back out at the same time, the entire set for the wheel should all be replaced, there is a good chance that they were overloaded.

    For those having the problem, have the dealer check flatness of the hub & wheel. If he doesn't have the proper gauge, suggest he borrow one from the local machine shop



  3. #3
    MJB
    MJB is offline
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    Join Date
    Jun 2000
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    499
    Location
    Syracuse, New York
    Tractor
    1952 Case DC-4, 2001 JD4300 MFWD, HST

    Default Re: 4000/4310/4410 rear wheel bolts - please respond

    I have a 2001 4300. The R-4 wheels came with tapered head bolts and tapered wheel lugholes. When I first got the tractor, I backed out the lugs one at a time, applied a few drops of 271 loctite, and re-torqued to spec. I have not had any trouble with loose wheel lugs in the 110 hours I have used it. Of course I don't know if the lugs would have loosened up without the loctite. I just bought a new set of the larger R-4s that are available for the 4310s. The new wheels have twelve lugholes instead of six. Six holes were tapered and six were flat. I just used the tapered lugs in the tapered holes with a fresh dose of loctite. Do your wheels have only six holes like the rear wheels of the tractor in this picture? (See attached) It looks like the tractor in the picture does not have washers under the lugs. If your wheels have twelve holes like mine you might want to rotate the wheel to use the flat holes instead of the tapered ones. Since the wheels are reversible, the holes are actually tapered from both sides. That would not leave much bearing area in the center to ride on the lugs and transmit the torque and radial loads. Yours is the first that I have seen or heard of that is using flat lugs with washers.[img]/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif[/img] My rear wheels are definitely different than the ones in the picture. The fronts look the same. Hope this helps.

  4. #4
    MJB
    MJB is offline
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    Jun 2000
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    Syracuse, New York
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    1952 Case DC-4, 2001 JD4300 MFWD, HST

    Default Re: 4000/4310/4410 rear wheel bolts - please respond

    Oops, forgot the picture. Credit for this photo go to John Miller III. Thanks.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #5
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
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    175
    Location
    rural illinois
    Tractor
    jd 4100

    Default Re: 4000/4310/4410 rear wheel bolts - please respond

    the 4100 does NOT have this issue.

  6. #6
    Epic Contributor Soundguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
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    46,366
    Location
    Central florida
    Tractor
    ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC

    Default Re: 4000/4310/4410 rear wheel bolts - please respond

    Nice picture of the machine.

    What hp is it?

    Soundguy

  7. #7
    MJB
    MJB is offline
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    Location
    Syracuse, New York
    Tractor
    1952 Case DC-4, 2001 JD4300 MFWD, HST

    Default Re: 4000/4310/4410 rear wheel bolts - please respond

    The 4410s are rated at 35 engine Hp and 28 PTO Hp with a hydrostatic transmission.

  8. #8
    Epic Contributor Soundguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
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    46,366
    Location
    Central florida
    Tractor
    ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC

    Default Re: 4000/4310/4410 rear wheel bolts - please respond

    Nice setup. I just wish the hydrostats didn't eat so much of the engine power... I'm used to the gear drive trannies that have a similar engine to pto hp.
    In any case, again.. nice looking tractor.

    Soundguy

  9. #9
    Administrator
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    Mar 1998
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    San Diego, CA
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    None currently

    Default Re: 4000/4310/4410 rear wheel bolts - please respond

    Hey, check it out, you can see a sliver of my pant leg, shoe, and hand in that photo! [img]/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif[/img]

  10. #10
    New Member
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    Sep 2005
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    Default Re: 4000/4310/4410 rear wheel bolts - please respond

    <font color=blue>...you can see a sliver of my pant leg, shoe, and hand in that photo...</font color=blue>

    ....Bragging or complaining.... [img]/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif[/img]


    Hey... Nice shoe... [img]/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif[/img]


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