types of transmissions

[john_bud]

That's a crock of steaming used horse feed.

Plain old gear crashbox tranny is super reliable.. as all the antique tractors running around with them.

Put 70 years on a new hydro, and abuse the fire out of it, and almost never maintain it.. ( like an old gear antique tractor trans ).. and see where you are..

Ald gear trans will run decades with worn leaky seals.. I'd like to see a hydro run with it's seals worn for decades.. on dirty oil, and no filter, and 1.5" of sand and much in the bottom of the trans sump.....

soundguy

Your answer is incorrect. What happens when you rock a gear tractor back and forth too agresssively? Broken teeth on the gears, bent shafts, cascading failures as chipped teeth jam other gears. Ever hear of a gear trans "stuck" in 2 gears? Ever hear of clutch failure? You yourself have posted that you yourself have seen a new clutch burnt in an hour by an unskilled user. Ever see that with an HST? Trans popping out of gear going down hills? What happens when you pop the clutch too fast too often? The list goes on. Extremely few of those failure modes exist with a HST transmission. Overload a gear trans and a part will break. Overload an hst and the pressure relief will bleed off. Ability to withstand abusive lack of maintenance does not define reliability.

Please do more that curse me when you disagree. You are wrong. Why not post some MTBF numbers? Or % of tractors repaired by transmission type per 1000 hours of use? Is it because you are only going by "gut feel" and no DATA? Be honest and not emotional.

jb

 

[jsborn]

Well Children it seems this is another Thread that has quickly become a sandbox fight between kids on the playground instead of an informative discussion of pros and cons of the subject at hand.

Just my observation and 2cents

 

[Soundguy]

A ring or pinion gear can pop no matter what tranny you have, if you rock it and work it hard or abuse it.

A clutch is a wear item. How much you use it, and how skilled the operastor is determines clutch life.

I've certaintly opened up antiques and found original, or at least vintage clutches.

Yes.. an unskilled operator can kill a clutch in an hour.. that's not a transmission weakness.. that's a bad operator. that bad operator can turn a 30K$ HST tractor into scrap in that same time. We had a nice shiny new JD 544E loader virtually ruined this way by a new hire on a land clearing job.

bent bucket, twisted bucket arms, broke dogbone, ripped foot steps off 1 flat tire dented engine cover panels, and a tree limb thru the rear radiator grate that damaged the grate and the radiator and the backup siren. Sadly, This is a 100% true story!

None of those were because the machine was poorly designed or weak.

As for your statement about an item being able to witstand abuse or lack of maintenance not being a sign of reliability.. well.. we'll just have to disagree on that one. i can't see it as anything other than a -defining point- of reliability.

And check your reading skills.. I didn't curse you... ( your statement.. yes.. ) There is a difference. Arguing a point vs a personal attack are 2 different things.

I realize there are a few posters here that don't understand what argumentum ad hominem means..

soundguy

Your answer is incorrect. What happens when you rock a gear tractor back and forth too agresssively? Broken teeth on the gears, bent shafts, cascading failures as chipped teeth jam other gears. Ever hear of a gear trans "stuck" in 2 gears? Ever hear of clutch failure? You yourself have posted that you yourself have seen a new clutch burnt in an hour by an unskilled user. Ever see that with an HST? Trans popping out of gear going down hills? What happens when you pop the clutch too fast too often? The list goes on. Extremely few of those failure modes exist with a HST transmission. Overload a gear trans and a part will break. Overload an hst and the pressure relief will bleed off. Ability to withstand abusive lack of maintenance does not define reliability.

Please do more that curse me when you disagree. You are wrong. Why not post some MTBF numbers? Or % of tractors repaired by transmission type per 1000 hours of use? Is it because you are only going by "gut feel" and no DATA? Be honest and not emotional.

jb

 

[Soundguy]

Well Children it seems this is another Thread that has quickly become a sandbox fight between kids on the playground instead of an informative discussion of pros and cons of the subject at hand.

Just my observation and 2cents

And your comment added what?

At least JB voiced his opinion based on his experiences. I at least credit him for that, whether or not I disagree. It's all any of us can do is post what we have observed and comment on it.

This isn't a subject where you can flip the back of the book open and check to see if the answers are right.

gear vs HST

My color vs your color

take your pic..etc.

Problems arise when people observe different situations. And how they feel about those situations based on their experiences.

Now.. I've said my piece to JB plus a rebuttal to a counter argument. At this point I expect a counter rebuttal.. in the end.. he will think HST trans are superior as far as reliability, and I will feel that gear trans are reliable. I predict neither of us will change our views. I'm ok with that too. He's obviously seen lots of abused gear trans that developed specific problems that are more or less not duplicatable in an HST trans.. like being in 2 gears.. (which.. is a wear or maintenace problem by the way.. worn detents or loose set screws on forks and rails.. or worn shifter nub. ).. Likewise.. I've simply seen way too many antique tractors with gear trans still running and working to say that gear trans are simply -not reliable-. Heck.. the 8spd trans in my ford 5000 is virtually identical to the 8spd in my NH 7610s I'm guessing if they were so unreliable that ford / NH wouldn't have continued using that trans for 38 years... or maybee i'm wrong

soundguy

 

[jsborn]

My comment added the fact that you just praised JB for: At least JB voiced his opinion based on his experiences It has been my exp that some of the posters here can't seem to debate or disagree with out the use of degrading remakes like: And check your reading skills .

I do enjoy the debates and I love the Information but the name calling and degrading remakes serve no useful purpose.

And this is my opinion based on my experience.

 

[Egon]

I realize there are a few posters here that don't understand what argumentum ad hominem means..

Who would they be and why do you think they fit in this category?

 

[Soundguy]

It has been my exp that some of the posters here can't seem to debate or disagree with out the use of degrading remakes like: And check your reading skills ..

"Check your reading skills"... seems like a pretty straight forward statement... He said I called 'him' something. i didn't. my comment was aimed squarely at his comment.. in order to avoid an ad hominem argument.

I do enjoy the debates and I love the Information but the name calling and degrading remakes serve no useful purpose.

.

Name calling? Havn't seen any.. unless I missed them... ( I'm not going to go back and re-read all 3 pages just to look for a name-call ) If you'd like to point them out.. do so via PM.. so we don't keep kicking this thread further OT disputing the grammer vs the subject.


Soundguy

 

[Egon]

As for the heckler that wanted to know how dirt gets in the sump

Does this qualify for "ad hominem" ?

 

[AKfish]

I've certaintly opened up antiques and found original, or at least vintage clutches.

Yes.. an unskilled operator can kill a clutch in an hour.. that's not a transmission weakness.. that's a bad operator. that bad operator can turn a 30K$ HST tractor into scrap in that same time.

None of those were because the machine was poorly designed or weak.

As for your statement about an item being able to witstand abuse or lack of maintenance not being a sign of reliability.. well.. we'll just have to disagree on that one. i can't see it as anything other than a -defining point- of reliability.

soundguy

I come away from this discussion with the conclusion that NONE of the transmission designs currently available are necessarily "inherently" superior to another. Structurally, they will all perform, with outstanding reliability; given proper operation and maintainance.

There are operational attributes; however, that make one design inherently superior to other transmission types when comparisons are based upon the type of work being performed.

Gear transmissions; either collar or snychromesh excel with heavy ground engagement chores; plowing, discing, cultivating and in situations where operations are conducted in large acreages with long distances when mowing, baling, etc.

Hydraulic reverser or shuttle shift transmissions also excel under work conditions that conventional gear transmissions tend to shine. However, these transmissions have the added advantage of clutchless forward and reverse movement. This use option is very beneficial when front loader operations are a routine function.

HST or hydrostatic transmissions excel in work environments where operations involve close quarters and/or precision movement of the machine and implements. It is also the easiest transmission for inexperienced operators to operate. Most industrial-use heavy equipment utilizes this type of transmission.

Therefore, the decision to buy a tractor with a specific transmission type should not be based upon the criteria of a "more reliable and superior transmission design" but rather more upon how the machine will be utilized and the personal, individual "tastes" of the purchaser.

I sincerely hope this was a helpful distillation of the previous comments.

AKfish

 

[Iplayfarmer]

I have a MF HST (Made by Iseki) that is size-wise pretty comparable to my older Iseki with a gear Tranny.

These are my observations...

The HST is WAY easier to use. I like the ease of changing directions. I like not having to clutch. I like that the PTO stays engaged regardless of what directions I'm going and how fast. I like that I can just let off the pedal a little to slow down for thicker grass when bush hogging, etc.

I liked the gear tranny because when I was driving a half mile to do some work at a friend's house, I could just put it in gear and sit back. Holding that hydro pedal down all the way for a half mile is almost as tiring as the clutch was for loader work. I liked that it seemed I had all of the engine power available. I could actually kill the engine in the gear tractor if I bogged it down. If I bog down the HST, it just stops moving, the engine keeps running.

What I like most about the HST is that the clutch doesn't wear out as quick (if ever). I've changed a clutch, and it's not easy.